Hydraulic Roller Lifter - preload / bleed-down?

[PaulProe]

I am having problems setting hydraulic roller lifters in an FE build.

In a previous FE build, I used a set of Crane hydraulic roller lifters. I don't know if they were actually built by Crane or if they were private labeled for them by someone else. When I would adjust them, I found it very difficult to determine zero lash since the plunger would very easily move up and down, as if the oil had bled away and only the spring was holding the plunger up.

I am now working on a new build that uses a set of Morel 5328 hydraulic rollers. When I go to set them, I find the plunger really doesn't want to move up and down, it is as if the lifter is full of oil and it will not push past the check valve, even after the engine has sat for over 24hrs. Putting a borescope thru the pushrod openings, I can see the plunger begin to move when being adjusted so I can tell when zero lash is obtained, but as I adjust the preload, it doesn't seem the plunger is moving but instead the valve spring is being loaded.

Is this normal? should the plungers be very stiff or should they easily move? The build is a Shelby aluminum block with TrickFlow aluminum heads. Reading the Morel data, I interpret they are suggesting 3/4-1 turn for preload, yet the system seems awfully noisy. I understand a little bit of 'sewing machine noise' as the system operates, but these seem very noisy. Is this to be expected? Do I just not have enough preload or would this change on a new engine as it begins to break in.

Any ideas or tips? I am using the EOIC adjustment method, doing one cylinder at a time in the firing order sequence.

Thanks to the brain trust. You've helped me out a lot.

Paul

[blykins]

Do you have 5325 or 5329? 

5329 are short travel lifters and only have about .030" of plunger travel.   If you're trying to get a full turn out of them, then you're opening the valve instead of manipulating the lifter.

Unless something is physically wrong with the lifter, a sewing machine noise is the camshaft and not the lifter.  If you have something like a Comp Xtreme Energy cam, then it will most likely be noisy. 

If you're using the EOIC method, you do not have to go through the firing order sequence.  Just run down one side of the engine and then hop over to the other side.  Otherwise, you're bouncing back and forth unnecessarily from one side to the other.

BTW, when I set preload, it's easier for me to use axial play on the pushrod to determine where I am.  Trying to gauge where you are by spinning the pushrod can give you a lot of false feelings.  If you run your adjuster out and then move the pushrod axially as you tighten it up, it's easy to tell when you're contacting the lifter, then you just dial in your preload.  Furthermore, don't forget that an all-aluminum engine will LOSE about .014" of preload when it gets to operating temperature.

[PaulProe]

Thanks for your comments, Brent. I got my numbers mixed up, the lifters are a PBM/Erson PL963 which I was told is a Morel 5325.

To determine zero lash, I use the method you describe. I could never find 'zero' when trying to spin the pushrod.

You mention the all aluminum engine will lose .014" as it gets to temp. Would it then be wise to go to the far end of the range when setting them, say 1 turn (.050") so when everything heats up, I still have some preload? Reading the Morel documents, for an aluminum head/aluminum block setup, they recommend .045-0.050"  Would this still hold true with the Shelby design where the head studs go all the way to the base of the cylinder?

Thanks

Paul

[blykins]

Thanks for your comments, Brent. I got my numbers mixed up, the lifters are a PBM/Erson PL963 which I was told is a Morel 5325.

To determine zero lash, I use the method you describe. I could never find 'zero' when trying to spin the pushrod.

You mention the all aluminum engine will lose .014" as it gets to temp. Would it then be wise to go to the far end of the range when setting them, say 1 turn (.050") so when everything heats up, I still have some preload? Reading the Morel documents, for an aluminum head/aluminum block setup, they recommend .045-0.050"  Would this still hold true with the Shelby design where the head studs go all the way to the base of the cylinder?

Thanks

Paul

I always aim for about .050-.060" preload for every street engine I build with hydraulic lifters. 

The head stud anchoring isn't what causes the expansion, it's the inherent nature of aluminum.  Aluminum expands greatly with heat and it causes both the block and heads to both expand. 

[bn69stang]

Hey Paul what rocker arms are you running ,

[PaulProe]

. . . The head stud anchoring isn't what causes the expansion, it's the inherent nature of aluminum.  Aluminum expands greatly with heat and it causes both the block and heads to both expand.

Brent
I was wondering if the design of the Shelby block, with the studs reaching down to the crank area, might reduce the amount of the aluminum expansion.

Other designs only have the studs into the top of the block and the aluminum block is free to grow in the area between the head and the crank. With the stud design of the Shelby, for that portion of the block to grow, the steel studs would have to stretch. Yes, the steel will grow also, but not as much

Thoughts?

Paul

[blykins]

. . . The head stud anchoring isn't what causes the expansion, it's the inherent nature of aluminum.  Aluminum expands greatly with heat and it causes both the block and heads to both expand.

Brent
I was wondering if the design of the Shelby block, with the studs reaching down to the crank area, might reduce the amount of the aluminum expansion.

Other designs only have the studs into the top of the block and the aluminum block is free to grow in the area between the head and the crank. With the stud design of the Shelby, for that portion of the block to grow, the steel studs would have to stretch. Yes, the steel will grow also, but not as much

Thoughts?

Paul

No sir, doesn’t make any difference.  Even though the studs go deeper, they still go into aluminum.