Author Topic: What the heck is going on in the oil pan?  (Read 10671 times)

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cjshaker

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Re: What the heck is going on in the oil pan?
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2021, 12:13:44 PM »

Since gravity is the only factor in oil returning, I don't think the "straight down shot" is forming the bubbles. Gravity doesn't increase with RPM, and there is no pressure added at RPM in that down force, as the hose analogy implies. There is more volume, but a small hose feeding water into a bucket at low pressure is no different than a big hose feeding water under the same pressure. Unless the "hose" is raised to a point where speed of return increases (picture a hose feeding at 1" height, compared to 3'), thereby adding pressure when it hits the water column, there still won't be bubbles. Only when pressure is added at the hose will it force air down into the water column. The crank on the other hand, has a huge influence with RPM. It's a massive aerator in essence.

Directing oil away from the crank is a known power builder, but also has other known benefits, like less aeration. That's where cam tunnels, scrapers and other trick oil mods come into play. But it still can't be eliminated entirely. Rod journals will still sling oil at the pistons, and those pistons will still shoot it directly back to the crank on the downstroke.

I don't agree Doug, gravity is not the only factor in oil returning.  The louvers on the pan that are directed straight down are allowing oil that is slung off the crank to be thrown at high speed into the rest of the oil in the pan.  As engine speed increases, the speed of the oil coming straight down is also increasing, and I think that is what is whipping up the oil so badly.  You might have to see the windage tray to understand what I'm saying...

Now I understand what you're saying about the tray louvers. The factory tray has angled louvers, as you mentioned, so that would seem to be a step in the right direction. But at the same time, what you say seems to validate my point, at least partially; that the crank speed, and its interaction with the oil, is the major cause of the issue. Keep the oil off of the crank, and the issue will correct itself, at least to some degree. I would also not be surprised to learn that the windage alone, from the rotating crank at high RPM's, acts like a giant tornado against the oil below.

IF I recall correctly, I believe that Blair mentioned once that the screen was the better option for trays. Unlike a solid tray, it allows little resistance to return, yet slows down the 'slamming' effect of return oil into the pan. This is just a guess on my part, so take it for what it's worth, but I would think the screen tray gets so 'saturated' with returning oil during a run that it almost acts like a solid tray, as it stops the oil from passing through unimpeded. In other words, it is in essence a liquid 'curtain' at high RPM. I think a screen tray and/or factory tray would be a worthwhile test...should anyone feel giddy enough to try it.  ;D
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

frnkeore

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Re: What the heck is going on in the oil pan?
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2021, 12:19:37 PM »
This is something that comes to mind, for me.

1. Use a truck pan.

2. Install a flat plate, angled from the top of the right side, to just above the oil level on the left.

3. Seal that plate around the oil pump, as well as possible.

4. Install waffled or corrigated, small mesh screening, on the plate, inline with the engine, to direct the oil, to the back of the crankcase. Leave about a 2-3 sq in area at the lower rear corner, for the return.

That way the oil will have a long path, flowing away from the pump, with the screen to separate the air from it and the longest path back to the pump pick up.
Frank

jayb

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Re: What the heck is going on in the oil pan?
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2021, 12:23:51 PM »
Bill, vacuum in the pan was right around 10 inches.  I was wondering about the very same thing, if lower pressure in the crankcase was directly subtracting from the pressure that the pump was putting out.  But 10" of vacuum is only about 5 psi, and I'm seeing much more of a drop than that. 

I think I can fab up a clear line coming out of oil filter adapter and dumping into another oil port, that would be very interesting too...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: What the heck is going on in the oil pan?
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2021, 12:24:27 PM »
This is something that comes to mind, for me.

1. Use a truck pan.

2. Install a flat plate, angled from the top of the right side, to just above the oil level on the left.

3. Seal that plate around the oil pump, as well as possible.

4. Install waffled or corrigated, small mesh screening, on the plate, inline with the engine, to direct the oil, to the back of the crankcase. Leave about a 2-3 sq in area at the lower rear corner, for the return.

That way the oil will have a long path, flowing away from the pump, with the screen to separate the air from it and the longest path back to the pump pick up.

That's kind of what I was thinking about, Frank...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: What the heck is going on in the oil pan?
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2021, 12:31:58 PM »
Would be interesting to see a much deeper pan and the effect increased distance has.
Bob Maag

blykins

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Re: What the heck is going on in the oil pan?
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2021, 12:41:01 PM »
I think a *deep* pan is an all-around win. 

I was discussing this with Jay last night and made the comment that I've never seen this kind of pressure drops in the past, even with the exact same oil pan, pickup, oil, at 7000-7500 rpm.  However, I can't make a direct apples/apples comparison because the engines that were in that situation did not have vacuum pumps.  However, the engines that did have vacuum pumps also did not see an oil pressure drop at high rpm.

The only differences I can think of are these:

1.  I do not use windage trays.
2.  I restrict oil to the lifters.

To echo one of Doug's points, I think there's an advantage to keeping oil off the crank, and this may reflect my #2 point.  The less oil that's rolling off of the cam/lifters, the less that falls onto the crankshaft. 

It would be nice to see a test without the windage tray to see what the difference would be.

As mentioned, a different oil type/viscosity may add a difference as well.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
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jayb

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Re: What the heck is going on in the oil pan?
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2021, 12:49:25 PM »
Maybe the Great FE Oil Pan and Windage Tray Comparo is in order... ;D
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Barry_R

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Re: What the heck is going on in the oil pan?
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2021, 01:01:55 PM »
I have tested numerous oil pan and tray combinations.  From what I can tell the best FE oil pan would be a 55 gallon oil drum and a 4 foot long drive shaft with the pump & screen upside down in the bottom.  Every single time we made the pan volume larger it picked up power.

As far as oil pressure readings with vacuum pumps - I have seen a drop in viewed pressure.  But if the pump is the same size, turning the same RPM, with the same inlet and outlet orifice (combined engine clearances) it is pumping the same amount of oil.

RJP

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Re: What the heck is going on in the oil pan?
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2021, 01:02:31 PM »
Jay, What oil pump pick up are you using? And do you think that might play a role in the aeration due in part to the resistance to flow [suction] to the pump?

jayb

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Re: What the heck is going on in the oil pan?
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2021, 01:33:05 PM »
The pump inlet is a Canton (or maybe Milodon, can't remember which for sure) 5/8" pipe with a square pickup on the bottom, screen on the bottom of the pickup.  Currently it sits about 3/8" over the bottom of the pan.  It has been heated up and bent slightly to get closer to the bottom of the pan than it was originally, but there is no noticeable necking down or kink in the tube.

I think the vacuum in the crankcase will contribute to a lower observed pressure, but not as much as I'm seeing...
« Last Edit: August 06, 2021, 01:36:36 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cjshaker

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Re: What the heck is going on in the oil pan?
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2021, 01:44:46 PM »
Jay said his bearings looked fine after the dyno runs.
Brent says that his bearings always come out looking great, and JJ seemed to show that.
Blair's winning EMC engine's bearings looked like new after many thrashings, and the tear down showed that.

None of these engines had super trick oil pan or tray mods of any kind, that I'm aware of.

So I still have to ask...if nobody is seeing bearing problems related to oil, what is the issue? It seems like making a mountain out of a mole hill. Personally, it seems that in the real world, with G forces thrown in the mix, baffling is way more important to bearing life than aeration, especially on a front sump pan like the typical FE.

Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

wayne

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Re: What the heck is going on in the oil pan?
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2021, 02:08:18 PM »
Years ago i helped on a stock car with a 427 chevy after each race it had foam all over out of the breathers He  ran Kendell gt 1 he changed  to Shell. no problem  he was told gt1 had to many cleaners.

Joey120373

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Re: What the heck is going on in the oil pan?
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2021, 02:16:53 PM »
I had some thoughts on this but most of what I was thinking has already been said!

Jay, something to try to get the tach to read;

If your using a general purpose output off the MS3 as a tach signal, try wiring it up as a ground switch for a general purpose relay, like the fuel pump relay is wired. The load terminals of the relay don’t need to be connected to anything, it’s the fly back voltage off the relay coil we are after, that should provide enough of a voltage spike to trigger the tach. But make sure that the relay output can be used to control a relay, I’m 95% sure that it can, but I would hate to damage your controller.
So 12v to one side of the coil, MS tach signal and tachometer input signal to the other coil terminal.

And, Congradulations on the 894 HP mark! So close….

Edit , just checked the MS3 manual:

3.3.6 Tach output
This output can be used to produce a 12 volt square wave signal. It can also trigger certain ignition modules such as an MSD 6AL or a Ford TFI, or be used as a general purpose on/off output. When used as an on/off output, it can sink up to 1 amp.

So triggering a standard automotive relay shouldn’t be a problem at all.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2021, 02:29:24 PM by Joey120373 »

blykins

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Re: What the heck is going on in the oil pan?
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2021, 02:20:46 PM »
Jay said his bearings looked fine after the dyno runs.
Brent says that his bearings always come out looking great, and JJ seemed to show that.
Blair's winning EMC engine's bearings looked like new after many thrashings, and the tear down showed that.

None of these engines had super trick oil pan or tray mods of any kind, that I'm aware of.

So I still have to ask...if nobody is seeing bearing problems related to oil, what is the issue? It seems like making a mountain out of a mole hill. Personally, it seems that in the real world, with G forces thrown in the mix, baffling is way more important to bearing life than aeration, especially on a front sump pan like the typical FE.

Doug, I agree, if it's not broke, don't fix it.  If the bearings look fine, I don't know if I'd be that concerned with it, other than the curiosity of trying to figure out why there was so much foaming.

I think Jay was mostly concerned about the pressure drop, and I would be too, because I normally don't see drops like that during a pull.  But after I did a bearing check, I think I'd just shrug my shoulders and go on.  LOL
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

jayb

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Re: What the heck is going on in the oil pan?
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2021, 02:40:21 PM »
Yes, the pressure drop is what really has me concerned.  It can't be good, no matter how the bearings look.  Just for my own peace of mind, I'd like to get a handle on that...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC