352 360 horse

[Joe-JDC]

The 348 was available in 1958 in the Impala, and it was available with the 3 x 2V option.  My dad had one.  Real gas guzzler.  1961 was the 350 hp version.  Joe-JDC

[427mach1]

From hotrod.com,  "The difference in real-world performance between the 360hp 352 and the 300hp 352, the next highest engine in the option lineup, was huge. Motor Life magazine tested a 1960 Starliner with the 352/300hp and reported a quarter-mile e.t. of 20.7 seconds with a trap speed of 80 mph flat. A snoozer, right? Another Starliner was tested in the January 1960 issue, this one equipped with the new 352/360hp engine. The e.t. for this car dropped by five seconds to 15.32 at 92.87 mph. A second test of a Starliner with the 352/360hp engine in Motor Life's July 1960 issue listed an even lower e.t. of 14.81 at 94.71. The slow 352/300hp car also had an automatic transmission, which was no hot rodder's gearbox. Even so, an engine that could shave e.t. by more than five seconds was almost supernatural."

[blykins]

What was the cam in the 300 hp 352?  My 352 when it was new to me and worn out made 264 hp with a BT 1x4, 650 Holley and the factory 190-ish duration camshaft.  I can't remember the compression ratio I calculated, but it was like 8.5:1.

[My427stang]

Bearings are .0025 rod .0030 main. Did not measure the piston to bore clearance    Relied on the machine shop and I forgot the spec.   I did not check ICL  I think the cam has a symetrical lobe and i installed it straight up . If you can figure it out from the event numbers here they are:  IO 24 BTDC  IC 70 ABDC  EO 72 BBDC  EC 22 ATDC. Not much info on a Holman Moody cam card

http://holmanmoody.com/cams.html

Royce, the confusion is solved by your post.  Those are the valve events for the HM 406 Sideoiler camcam, 275 @ .001, 228 @ .050.  Nice mild street cam, buy there is likely lots and LOTS more in that old girl!  47 degrees overlap at .001 probably equates to a 268H or less.  Not knocking the build in any way but all seems to jive now

[blykins]

Ross nailed it, that's why it sounds so mild. 

[Royce]

hmmm so I did not get a copy of the 352/360 horse cam?...  Werby???   

[blykins]

hmmm so I did not get a copy of the 352/360 horse cam?...  Werby???   

You got the HM #406 cam, which was the 1963 AA cam.

[WerbyFord]

hmmm so I did not get a copy of the 352/360 horse cam?...  Werby???   

Same cam.
As I said above, that 275-275 duration is AT LASH.
Look right below it, the "B" cam is shown as 290-290 AT LASH with the usual 242-242 at .050.
But we all refer to the "B" cam as the 324-324 cam, which is what it measures at .006 lobe approx.
That's just what I get when I degree that lobe out. 288-290 at lash, 324-324 at .006 lobe, 244-244 at .050.

Royce, you might want to degree the cam you got to be sure, eg is it in fact 228-228 at .050?
From the peak RPM it sounds like it.
I degree them at
.006 lobe
.020
.050
.100
.200
Max lift
.200
.100
.050
.020
.006 lobe
Did you flow those heads somewhere along the way? I forgot.

19.5" vacuum does sound high, but maybe. Some  vacuum gages read high too.
The 306-306 aka 275-275 aka 228-228 cam idles smooth in either the 406 or 427, all you hear is clatter, no lope.
I've never heard the factory version in the 352 but from all the literature we've all been thru it's the same cam, just "advertised" at different lobe lifts.

The 352/300 had a couple cams in there:
The early "hot" B8A-A 352/300 "Pro Stock Police FBI Interceptor" or whatever it was called had a solid
202-206-112 at .050 as I measured a well-used one.
This might have been 206-206, and may well have evolved into the 1961-65 390/330 PI cam, which is suspiciously close to the early 390GT cam at 206-206 up thru early 1966.

The later "grocery" 352/300 had the little B8A-B 186-186 at .050 cam, 270-270 advertised, those lobes look as round as they get.
Per the info I have, B8A-B 1958-59 had a 113.0 LSA, the later C0AZ-A had LSA=110.5, tightened up a little.
The vanilla 352 became a competitive NHRA combo when it was downrated to 352/250hp in 1964, but no way at 300hp.

There's also a 1959 "Police" 352 B9A-A cam listed in MPC but I've never seen any specs on it, IIRC it says "high lift", like maybe .430 instead of .401.

I had the Motor Life quarter mile tests already, those Gonkulate well at about 348hp.
I just wondered if Hot Rod had done any other 1/4 mile tests.
To get that 152mph top speed ROTFLMAO I have to Gonkulate that with approx an NHRA legal engine (about 385hp) and open exhaust.

[frnkeore]

I have these specs for a C0AZ-A cam. I think it is the 300 hp 352 cam.

270 duration, LSA 110.5, ICL 109, 49 over lap, .401 lift

[Royce]

Well, this can get really confusing, but Werby seems to have it worked out...  OK  so do I have the cam that Ford put in the 352/360.  Even under ideal conditions that engine probably never made 360 horse, more like 325 ..  Ford exaggerated HP  .Probably not the only time that happened. We have to remember as racy as these cars were touted, they still had to be street cars which required docile idle and acceptable fuel mileage. This cam is a pretty good compromise.. Mild down low.. and a good top end.  Unlike the regular 300 hp 352 which signed off at about 4800 this cam would still make horsepower at 6000 if the valve springs cooperate..  This cam in a 427 seems like it would be way too small, and even on a 406 would be kinda wimpy.  Did Ford tighten the LSA for those engines to give some more overlap?

Is the 352 intake manifold the exact same piece as the 390/375 and the 406/385?  Did the 390 and 406 get a bigger carburetor?

[WerbyFord]

Royce,
Well that's why I said I'd degree that cam just to be SURE, get a whole profile since this is such a significant test.
All the info I have leads me to conclude: SAME CAM:
352/360
390/375-401
406/385-405
427/410-425 (early 8v anyway)
Advertised: 306-306 or 276-276 or 274-274 I've seen all 3
228-228 at .050 195-195 at .100 lobe
114.5 LSA, never changed.
Nearly identical (maybe 2 degrees bigger at .050) cam used in
289HP
302boss
429SCJ
If you've heard a factory 289HP or 302boss, this cam gets fairly rough when the CID gets down that low.
I've never personally heard an original in a 352/360hp.

FoMoCo fattened this same cam up to
Advertised: 324-324 or 288-288 or 290-290
242-242 or 244-244 at .050, 208-208 at .100
Still 114.5 LSA
This became the 427-8v cam or 427 "optional" cam.
Chevy liked this grind so much it became the grind for the Rat L78, L72, L71, L89, LS6.

FoMoCo tightened the LSA up to 107 IIRC and this same 324-324 cam became the factory cam for the 427HR in the T-Bolt and 64 LWG.

Intakes, as I understand it now there are 3 different low-riser aluminums
352/360
390/375 and 406/385, runners are maybe 1/4" or 1/2" higher
427/410 runners are about 10% bigger inside

FoMoCo did have an "A"-Curve for dyno testing which is sometimes how they rated gross horsepower.
* Heads & deck at min volume
* Bearings & walls loose as a goose
* Headers instead of exhaust iron (nil difference on the 427s)
This is how we hear numbers like 400-410hp for the 428CJ instead of 380hp for a "typical" factory 428CJ.
So I guess it's possible that the 352/360hp was the "A-curve" rating.

[My427stang]

So I trust HM table as much as I trust Ford for measuring the way we measure now. There just weren't any standards to compare cam to cam back then. much like the HP numbers LOL

However, if you look at the chart I sent the link to it says events at .001 lift, if that is defined as immediate lifter rise.  That would only make up .00176 of the lash, before the valve left its seat it would need to make up the rest of the lash, effectively making it smaller than 275 degrees

If the .001 means "at the valve" then it really means the .050 value would likely be at the valve and measured oddly, but these were slow ramp cams, so that really doesn't check either
.
I think I agree that this is the same old 306 baby427 cam, but not entirely sure, and it would make sense they used it across a lot of Ford models if it was just a copy HM offered. 

It'd be great if you could map the cam at all valve events at .020 and .050, we can see what it compares to versus modern solids, or send out to a Cam Doctor for a real cam card

Regardless, this cam is behaving exactly like a 270S or smaller with a wider spread, so I think we are on to something. I also suspect that you did build a 360 hp Ford, they just weren't 360 hp








Get a bit more modern intake lobe, add a bunch of exhaust lobe, and keep overlap in check and I bet power and torque goes up. 

[Royce]

Does anyone on here have a Cam Dr?   I have an early 427 cam plus this H-M cam  Would be nice to get a full profile of both of them.

[Joe-JDC]

Intake manifolds are definitely different between the 352/360 and the 390/375 engines.  We have shown the differences in pictures in the past.  The runners on the 352 intake are below the surface in places, and the 390 runners are raised.  If your intake runners disappear into the casting you have the 352 intake.  Joe-JDC

[Royce]

Definitely the 352/360 intake