Author Topic: FE Dizzy & Ignition System  (Read 16725 times)

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Kerry j

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FE Dizzy & Ignition System
« on: June 07, 2011, 07:03:27 AM »
Just wondering what your opinion is about distributors and or ignition systems. When I took the 416 to the dyno, the operator gave me a lot of crap about using a stock distributor with the Pertronix module. It was a Ford duel point with mechanical advance, I had sent to Farron to get recurved. Once we got the timing right, the engine seemed to run good; just didn't make a lot of power. Earl (the dyno operator) kept saying that he thought the dizzy was holding things back.

I wish I knew more about this; but from what I've read about ignition, I just couldn't see how the distributor I was using could make that much difference over say a billet MSD set up.

What am I missing? Am I missing something?

By the time I buy a nice Ford 427 dizzy; around $200.00, a Pertronix III $130.00 and have it recurved $80.00 or so, new cap & rotor $30.00; the cost is getting to be right there with a Billet MSD. It's not a matter of money and while I like the looks of the stock 427 dizzy, I don't want to be giving up a bunch of power just to look correct on the 496 I'm about ready to dyno.

jayb

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Re: FE Dizzy & Ignition System
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2011, 07:55:53 AM »
I think you dyno operator's comments are questionable.  There is no reason that a stock distributor converted to electronic will hold your engine back unless you get into a spark scatter situation.  Having said that, the Pertronix setup needs to be working correctly, giving repeatable and reliable signals, or you will lose power.  I don't have a lot of experience with the Pertronix setup, because I have never used one; the idea of triggering a magnetic sensor off the stock distributor cam doesn't seem like a good approach to me.  I work in the magnetic sensor industry, and as a magnetic "target" the stock distributor cam sucks.  But I assume that the Pertronix module has that issue addressed, and if the distributor was recurved and run up to any decent engine speed, any problems with the Pertronix setup should have been apparent.

I have tested an MSD distributor and a stock Ford distributor with the stock magnetic pickup back to back on the dyno, on my 390 stroker engine, and seen no difference in power production.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Kerry j

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Re: FE Dizzy & Ignition System
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2011, 07:49:11 PM »
Thanks for the response Jay, what your saying has prompted me to look into this whole business more thoroughly. One thing I discovered that I hadn't really noticed before was the Peertronix systems all use a "Hall Effect" pickup, while MSD appears to use a "Magnetic" pickup. Since I didn't have a clue what a "Hall Effect" was I Googled it and found this article:

http://www.wellsve.com/sft503/Counterpoint3_1.pdf

After reading it, I still don't really know which type of pickup is better, but the article seems to me to say that the "Hall Effect" type sensors are more accurate and stable because they produce a pure DC pulse, where a "Magnetic" type has to have a constant AC voltage that is alters. But then maybe I'm not getting all the details here.

Anyway, there are Pertronix Billet Distributors which look a lot like the Ford 427 Dizzy, so all else being equal I would tend to lean toward one of those rather than the red cap MSD.

Now I've got to see what I can see about a CD box that works for both and see what kind of difference there is there.

Thoughts? 

jayb

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Re: FE Dizzy & Ignition System
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2011, 08:43:00 AM »
Either type of pickup will work fine, Kerry, assuming it gets the correct magnetic input.  The stock Ford pickup and the MSD pickup are referred to as VR, for Variable Reluctance, devices.  These devices work on a principle based on Maxwell's equations (figured I'd inject a little science/math into our discussion).  The pickup in a Ford type distributor is basically a magnet with a coil of wire wrapped around it.  A current will be generated in the wire whenever the magnetic field going through the coil of wire changes.  The 8 teeth on the distributor's reluctor wheel are made of a magnetic material (probably a certain iron alloy).  As a tooth lines up with the magnet pole, the magnetic field is directed through the tooth, and through the wire coil.  This change of field through the coil causes a current to be induced in the wire.  Because the wire has an electrical resistance, a voltage appears at the terminals of the coil, which can be detected with an amplifier circuit (Ohm's law:  Voltage = Current X Resistance).  When the tooth moves away from the pole, the magnetic field lines are no longer directed through the tooth and the coil, so the current through the coil changes again, resulting in a different voltage at the coil terminals.  Note that this is a dynamic, or AC, effect.  To get a signal output at the ends of the wire, you need a change with time in the magnetic field going through the coil.  Also, the more rapid the change, the larger the current that is induced in the coil.  This means that for the VR sensor in a Ford or MSD distributor to work, you need some minimum speed to generate a minimum detectable voltage at the coil terminals.  It also means that the faster you go, the bigger this voltage signal will be, and the easier it will be to detect.  There is essentially no upper speed limit to a VR distributor system, only a lower speed limit.  (Of course, the lower speed limit is designed to be below the engine's cranking speed.)  The VR system is also very reliable; electrically, it only relies on a coil of wire and a permanent magnet.  Finally, a VR sensor is airgap dependent, meaning that if the teeth on the distributor reluctor wheel are farther away from the magnet, less magnetic field will be directed through the tooth, and the lower the voltage signal will be at the ends of the coil.  So one potential failure mechanism for the VR sensor is a distributor bearing failure, where the reluctor wheel is not held in close proximity to the magnet as it spins by.

A Hall effect sensor is a solid state device.  It is a silicon chip, like all the chips in any other electronic component.  As a magnetic field passes through the silicon Hall sensor chip, a voltage appears at the terminals of the Hall sensor on the chip.  The bigger the field, the bigger the voltage.  This is a DC effect, so there is no speed component required.  Therefore a Hall sensor will give an output even if the distributor is not moving (no lower speed limit).  It also has no effective upper speed limit in an engine application; Hall sensor operate beyond 100 KHz (100,000 cycles per second), which is far in excess of any speed required in an internal combustion engine.  In a Pertronix system the Hall sensor is "biased" with a permanet magnet.  So, when the point of the stock distributor cam is closest to the hall sensor, the magnetic field from the bias magnet is directed to that point, through the Hall sensor, and a certain voltage will appear at the Hall sensor terminals.  When the flat part of the stock distributor cam is closest to the Hall sensor, less magnetic field is directed through the Hall sensor, and less voltage will appear at the Hall sensor terminals.  A Hall sensor is also very airgap dependent; the farther away the target is from the sensor, the less signal output will come from the sensor.  Finally, as a semiconductor chip, the Hall sensor is probably not as reliable as the simple VR sensor.

The big problem I see with the Pertronix setup is that the stock distributor cam is not a good target for the sensor.  Looking at the reluctor wheel in the Ford VR setup, it has thick points that extend out to the magnet, so there is a very clear difference when the tooth is present and when it is not.  On the factory distributor cam, though, the difference is much less pronounced.  This will result in a pretty small signal output from the Hall sensor, making it more susceptible to electrical noise.  The engine compartment is a very electrically noisy place, and the noise increases as engine speed increases.  With a VR sensor you will see increasing signal with engine speed, which helps to counter the effects of electrical noise.  You don't get that benefit with a Hall effect sensor.  I'm sure that when you had the distributor curved it was run up to some peak RPM and functioned properly, but in the engine with 8 plugs firing, the alternator whirring away, and whatever other sources of electrical noise are present, you may end up losing some pulses out of the Pertronix module due to noise.  I have no data to back up this theory, it is just supposition on my part.  But this is what has kept me away from the Pertronix setup over the years.

Looking back at your original post, you said the dyno operator's comments were directed at the stock distributor and the Pertronix module.  It is possible that the dyno operator has seen issues with the Pertronix modules before, and this was the reason for his comments.  Your dyno results showed a breakup in the engine's power at higher speeds, and this would fit my theory of increasing electrical noise with engine speed interfering with the Pertronix module's output.  Maybe your dyno operate was onto something, but as I said I have no experience with the Pertronix modules so I can't back up my comments with any data.  Take them for what they are worth.

Wouldn't an MSD box work with the Pertronix system?  It will work with a VR sensor like the Ford or MSD distributor has, and of course it will work with points or any other factory style distributor pickup.  If you are looking for a box I'd check out an MSD Digital 6.

Also, I know you have some money into your existing distributor, but I wonder if it couldn't be converter pretty inexpensively to a VR type pickup?  You can find Ford distributors with a VR pickup at any junkyard, or buy rebuilt versions from any parts store.  I think you might be able to just swap distributor shafts and mounting plates, and turn your Pertronix distributor into a VR distributor for less than $50.  Don't know for sure though; you'd have to investigate that.

Hope this helps - Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Kerry j

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Re: FE Dizzy & Ignition System
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2011, 03:05:06 PM »
Wow Jay, thanks for the lengthy reply; I can tell you really know what you're talking about and your explanation helps a lot.

I probably confused you a little about what I'm doing and trying to figure out. Let me make things a little more clear and then lets see where that takes us.

1. I bought a couple of Ford duel point, mechanical advance 427 distributors; I sent them to Faron and he refurbished, re-curved and installed a Pertronix III unit in each one. I did this because I wanted the 416 I was building and the 496, I'm working on right now to look correct for the 61-64 cars they're going to go in. At the time, I didn't realize any of the possible pitfalls you covered in your excellent post.

2. When I ran the 416 on the Dyno and it was breaking up, the timing was set at least 15 degrees retarded from where we thought it was and, the dyno operator had not run a dedicated ground to the engine block. Of course at the time we didn't know this and Earl thought that the Pertronix and the stock plug wires were the problem. While I was changing the distributor and putting on a different set of wires, I noticed the timing and ground problem. So we changed 4 things at once; the distributor, plug wires, timing and the ground. That seemed to pretty much solved the breaking up.


3. My concerns now are that I'm a bit worried about the Ford 427 dizzy I still have being able to handle the extra compression and RPM the 496 will have. Your comments about how the Pertronix III conversion uses the points cam lobe is what I'm most concerned about. So I started looking around and discovered that Pertronix makes a billet distributor that looks a lot like the Ford units I have and I could have bought them for a lot less than I have into the 427 dizzys. What I don't know is if the Pertronix dizzy has a better pickup system than the conversion does. I assume so because when I read about them, they indicate the use dedicated cobalt magnets for their "Hall Effect" pickup.

4. Also, if I'm going to use a 6AL CD box, there's no need for the Pertronix III as the only advantage it has over the Pertronix II is that it has a rev limiter.

So, now I need to discover if there is a significant difference in how the pickup works in the billet distributor compared to how it works in the conversion.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 03:07:53 PM by Kerry j »

jayb

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Re: FE Dizzy & Ignition System
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2011, 05:16:54 PM »
I'll bet that the dedicated Pertronix distributor uses a much different arrangement that the stock point cam for the target.  I have a F.A.S.T. distributor with Hall effect pickups that uses a magnetic band that goes around the distributor shaft.  This band is magnetized in 8 poles to give 8 signal outputs from the Hall sensor per revolution.  It may be that the Pertronix distributor uses something similar, or possibly that it uses 8 separate permanent magnets on the distributor shaft to actuate the Hall sensor.  Either way, it would be far superior to the stock points cam.  I'd call up Pertronix and ask them about it.  See if they've got any pictures of the arrangement under the cap.

Alternatively, if you want a stock look to your distributor, buy a stock replacement distributor from Autozone or Carquest or Napa, for a '76 Ford pickup truck with the 390.  This distributor will have the Ford electronic VR pickup and reluctor wheel.  Swap on the vacuum can from your early distributor (if it has one), and you will have a VR pickup distributor.  When I did my 390 Stroker engine for the Car Craft article that was the distributor I used, and it worked fine.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Kerry j

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Re: FE Dizzy & Ignition System
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2011, 06:29:54 PM »
I called Pertronix and after holding for about 15 minutes, I hung up and sent them an email asking about how the pickup in their billet plug & play distributor differs from the conversion units. I'll post what they say once I get to the bottom of it.

The distributors are mechanical advance, not vacuum, so I assume that would be a problem to convert to the 76 Ford VR pickup.

jayb

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Re: FE Dizzy & Ignition System
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2011, 10:32:02 PM »
Well, of course the distributors with vacuum advance also have the mechanical advance mechanism, so all you'd really need to do is remove the vacuum advance canister and and fix the plate that moves with the vacuum advance lever so it is held in position. You can make up a simple bracket to do this this; no big deal.  But if you want a specific mechanical advance curve in the distributor you'd have to have it recurved.  If you had Faron recurve your other distributors, he could probably also do a new one and fix the plate that moves with the vacuum advance in position.

And again I also think it may be possible to switch the shaft and pickup out of a VR distributor and put it in one of your existing distributors, which would let you retain the advance curve that is already in those distributors.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Kerry j

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Re: FE Dizzy & Ignition System
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2011, 06:51:47 AM »
Hmm.... Well I have a complete Ford electronic distributor somewhere in my shop; I'll have to find it and see if I can see a way to swap parts into one of the 427 distributors I have.

I sure hope Pertronix gets back to me today; I really want to hear what they have to say about the pickups before I decide which way to go next.

The 427 distributors go for $200+ so; if the conversion pickup isn't rock solid and able to provide what I need, it's probably a good idea to just sell them and get the Billet plug & play distributor.

68fecyclone

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Re: FE Dizzy & Ignition System
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2011, 09:40:16 AM »
  Kerry, you can put the dura spark parts in the 427 distribuors, you just need to change every thing from the advance parts up, the main shaft is the same. the real problem is getting the 3 wires out. You would need to cut a slot in the housing, destroying the value of the dizzy.
   I think I would try a different dizzy and see if it makes any difference, if not keep what you have.  Im sure their are other points conversions that would work well with a msd box.. I vote to keep the 427 dizzys for the correct look, dont think a billet dizzy is going to make muck difference in the end other then not looking right. :) Rob

Edit to add the dura spark parts from any v8 dizzy can be used to convert a points dizzy.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 09:42:49 AM by 68 FE CYCLONE »

jayb

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Re: FE Dizzy & Ignition System
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2011, 11:26:27 AM »
One thing that may help on this is that you really don't need all three wires to come out of the distributor if you are running an MSD.  The black wire is not required, only the other two (purple and green, I think?  Or purple and orange?).  The MSD wiring hooks up to those two wires only.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

427stang

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Re: FE Dizzy & Ignition System
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2011, 05:58:04 PM »
Jay,
Not to highjack the thread but what are your thoughts on using a Ford distributor with all but one reluctor tooth ground off for a cam signal for an injection set up? I have a MSD crank trigger and think this would be a way to make it work while keeping some original parts.
Thanks,
Duane

jayb

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Re: FE Dizzy & Ignition System
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2011, 10:45:40 PM »
That approach will definitely work.  Be careful which tooth you leave, though.  A sequential EFI setup will require the cam sync pulse to come in at a certain point; on the FAST systems I'm familiar with, this is somewhere in the 90 degrees of crank rotation just prior to the firing of the number 1 plug, if I recall correctly.  You might want to get the engine assembled with the crank trigger setup installed and get the plug wires where you want them on the distributor and the distributor installed before you decide which tooth on the reluctor wheel you are going to keep.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

My427stang

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Re: FE Dizzy & Ignition System
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2011, 05:45:59 AM »
Kerry,
Here is a post on an AMC forum about the P3.

http://theamcforum.com/forum/new-pertronix-ignitor-iii-done_topic10306_page1.html

My opinion is give it a shot, it doesn't look like it will be as powerful as a true CD ignition, but the only real question seems to be around stable triggering within a noisy distributor. 

I have had a lot of experience in the old days with magnetic proximity sensors and they can be pretty accurate with small movements. 

As a secondary problem, IMO if the distributor body is accurately grounded and you don't try to run excessive plug gap, noise won't be an issue. 

I am afraid to post this because it may sound like I recommend it, I don't, I don't think you'll have an issue, but.....if noise really became a problem at high RPM, you could make a cover which would ground any interference from the cap and rotor, but that would only be required in the most hostile environments, and I really doubt you will be there. 

Something like this but made of metal could be pretty easily made.

http://www.mid-enginemania.com/product_images/m/322/1230500147__25723_zoom.jpg

Truthfully though, I think your dyno operator put some doubt in your mind with the last motor, when all that was really wrong was that you were 15 degrees late on timing.
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Kerry j

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Re: FE Dizzy & Ignition System
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2011, 11:54:15 AM »
Just an FYI for anyone who is interested. I finally heard back from Pertronix about their Billet Distributor and how the pickup works on it. The embed magnets into a sleeve on the distributor shaft and the magnets are what triggers the "Hall Effect" switch. It seems to me that this should be a more reliable method than the cam lobe pickup the conversion kits use.