Author Topic: Reducing Oil to Heads  (Read 3405 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

machyoung

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
    • View Profile
Reducing Oil to Heads
« on: December 11, 2020, 06:12:02 PM »
Original 428 CJ never been apart.Changing intake gaskets due to oil leak at rear of intake. Since having rocker shafts off, should I drop in a couple of jets? 70's? Thoughts?

Keith Stevens

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 222
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing Oil to Heads
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2020, 07:12:15 PM »
Did you change replace the gaskets after removing the covers? I think all of us restrict the oil to the top end. I would personally. We've had pictures posted with transparent valve covers as well as scopes. There is as much as a quart of oil up top when you want to keep it in the pan.

GJCAT427

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 662
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing Oil to Heads
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2020, 09:24:23 AM »
It can`t hurt, I have Jay`s clear covers on my 427 MR and people almost think its not oiling at idle. But when I rev it you can see the oil flowing and splashing around. I have had in the past 390`s that weren`t restriced and there was a huge amount of oil in the top end at idle and when rev`ed there was a ton of oil going to the top that would overflow the rear of the head with the covers off. Talk about a mess!

cjshaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4537
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing Oil to Heads
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2020, 10:51:30 AM »
Original 428 CJ never been apart.Changing intake gaskets due to oil leak at rear of intake. Since having rocker shafts off, should I drop in a couple of jets? 70's? Thoughts?

An original engine that's never been apart, with a stock oil pump? I wouldn't. I'd assume you don't run the engine hard, being all original, so I don't see why it would benefit you unless the bearings were wore out and you were trying to gain oil pressure. I know everyones first instinct these days is to restrict flow to the heads, but that is usually because of aftermarket pumps and performance increases.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

machyoung

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing Oil to Heads
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2020, 02:48:43 PM »


An original engine that's never been apart, with a stock oil pump? I wouldn't. I'd assume you don't run the engine hard, being all original, so I don't see why it would benefit you unless the bearings were wore out and you were trying to gain oil pressure. I know everyones first instinct these days is to restrict flow to the heads, but that is usually because of aftermarket pumps and performance increases.
[/quote]

This is why I'm asking. Bone stock, 58k miles, street car.

Keith Stevens

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 222
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing Oil to Heads
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2020, 05:00:02 PM »
It's not just about keeping oil pressure up. It also keeps the oil  from sitting up top in large amounts.  The older engine would be justification in itself with umbrella seals and half quart sitting around the stems has the potential to be pulled into the chamber.  I have done it to every FE I've ran.  It's just simply cheap insurance that certainly can't do harm. You have an 8.00 investment and the valve covers are off.

cleandan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 486
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing Oil to Heads
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2020, 09:56:47 AM »
machyoung, here are some things to consider.
First, you are saying this is an original, untouched, 58,000 mile 428. Neat to find this long after production.

This first fact needs to be addressed in order to keep your 428 running well into the future.
A few things have happened over the years, one of which is age related parts deterioration. Your valve stem umbrella seals are no longer seals as much as hard as glass brittle, umbrella shaped, black things that will end up pulverized and distributed throughout your oiling system.

I would be VERY surprised if there is not fractured umbrella seal in the oil pan, and head oil return ports, already.

At best the valve umbrella seals are still intact, but no longer providing much in the way of oil control. When you run the engine the oil pump overwealms the oil return system and the area under the valve cover floods with excess oil...and this is when everything is working properly.
Add to this mix the broken umbrella seals blocking the oil return passages and the problem compounds.

With the glass hard, or fractured, or simply broken away umbrella seals you have valve stems with little to no valve stem oil control, as well as an oil flooded area causing the rear valve stems to be potentially submerged in oil.

This will result in oil being pulled, by vacuum, past the intake valve stems and into the combustion chambers...and now you have a low flying crop duster effect that is especially fun at idle.

Unless this is a true Concours style event car, with an awesome preservation class engine, I strongly suggest you pull the valvetrain to replace the valve stem seals with something that will actually seal and control oil and air past the valve stems.
When doing this it is a great time to install the restrictors.
Pulling the heads and having them inspected and gone through would be the best option to ensure things are still worthy of running the engine as intended.

If you install an improved oil pump per the general rule of FE engine building lore, usually a high volume pump, then it is really wise to also install the head oil flow restrictors.

The oil system on an FE is a bit unique in that it is best to treat it like a fully cohesive system rather than a collection of parts.
In stock form, on a stock engine, with zero alterations away from stock, it works pretty well.

Start modifying any parameters away from that and the entire oil system should also be modified in order to work best as a whole oil system.

Many a well intentioned FE owner simply installed a high volume oil pump when they had the oil pan off for some reason...and the results were more damaging than if they had left the oil system alone.

There is more going on here than simply dropping in a Holley jet of the proper size to restrict oil flow to the heads.
While you do not need a full tilt, race inspired, rebuild to get you to the good results, a bit of prudent preventative maintenance and modification can be just the thing for decades of fun driving in your situation.

One benefit of doing the head work is you will get to visually inspect much of the engine while doing the work. This can either confirm things are still good, or give notice that other, more involved, work is required...which can be the bacon saver as compared to finding out your engine has issues AFTER it broke on the way to Cars and Coffee.




machyoung

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing Oil to Heads
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2020, 01:10:17 PM »
CD,

Appreciate the commentary! I will say that when I removed the valve covers, I am pretty sure that it is the first time that they have ever been off. I am certain that the same rings true for the intake manifold.

This is not a concours car however it is an excellent example of an unrestored original. Trust me when I say that the thought of removing the heads for clean-up does intrigue me. But so does removing and replacing the nylon gear and timing chain. And then may as well put in a slightly bigger cam with appropriate springs, etc., etc., etc. It really can start snowballing on you.

The engine runs terrific as is, doesn't burn any oil, etc. It has a good tune-up (distributor recurved) and carburetor rebuilt.

I run 6 quarts of oil as in both of my other FE's. I have Ede heads on the others and although I know that I could, I do not run any restriction.

My goal with the car is to get it running great (which it mostly does), fix a few annoying leaks and drive it. I will tell you that I have had to replace multiple rubber items on the car from brake hoses and tires to belts and hoses.

Thus my question without any further upgrades (although obviously necessary), should I run a restriction in a bone stock CJ?

Thanks, Robert




jayb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7564
    • View Profile
    • FE Power
Re: Reducing Oil to Heads
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2020, 02:25:30 PM »
As long as it has the stock oil pump and the stock tins under the rocker shafts, I wouldn't bother with restrictors.  Those drainback tins really help getting the oil back to the pan, based on my testing anyway.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Keith Stevens

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 222
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing Oil to Heads
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2020, 04:31:40 PM »
I left my tins in the head even restricted. It made no sense in removing them considering how much oil was up top and It was clear they assisted with drain-back.

427John

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing Oil to Heads
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2020, 07:03:41 PM »
CD,

Appreciate the commentary! I will say that when I removed the valve covers, I am pretty sure that it is the first time that they have ever been off. I am certain that the same rings true for the intake manifold.

This is not a concours car however it is an excellent example of an unrestored original. Trust me when I say that the thought of removing the heads for clean-up does intrigue me. But so does removing and replacing the nylon gear and timing chain. And then may as well put in a slightly bigger cam with appropriate springs, etc., etc., etc. It really can start snowballing on you.

The engine runs terrific as is, doesn't burn any oil, etc. It has a good tune-up (distributor recurved) and carburetor rebuilt.

I run 6 quarts of oil as in both of my other FE's. I have Ede heads on the others and although I know that I could, I do not run any restriction.

My goal with the car is to get it running great (which it mostly does), fix a few annoying leaks and drive it. I will tell you that I have had to replace multiple rubber items on the car from brake hoses and tires to belts and hoses.

Thus my question without any further upgrades (although obviously necessary), should I run a restriction in a bone stock CJ?

Thanks, Robert
I don't see the need for pulling the heads on a good running engine,you should be able to get a look at the umbrella seals with the heads on,I would get a light down the oil drainbacks to check for obstruction and clean as necessary.Even if your umbrella seals are bad they can be replaced on the engine.As far as restricting oil to the top a lot of that has to do with what your intended usage is,the more time spent at higher rpms allows the top end oiling to outpace the drainback.One example is the Olds 455 which has a particularly torturous oil drainback passage,while they don't really cause an issue in cars driven on the street,these engines when installed in jetboats and v-drives as they commonly were had lots of issues with dry pans and oil starvation when operated at 4000 rpm or higher for extended periods,to the point that Mondello developed restricted pushrods for marine use.I agree with the use of tins and am curious if the guys with clear valve covers have noticed any difference between the earlier long tins vs the later short tins. 

cjshaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4537
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing Oil to Heads
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2020, 01:00:42 AM »
If it does have the original umbrella seals in it, it would certainly be a good idea to at least replace them with new ones. It might go against your mindset of doing as little as possible to keep the originality, but busted up seals can destroy an engine, and do it quickly. The job can be a bit tedious doing it in the car, but the benefits are piece of mind...and possibly a saved engine.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

BigBlueIron

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 421
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing Oil to Heads
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2020, 10:44:24 AM »
If it does have the original umbrella seals in it, it would certainly be a good idea to at least replace them with new ones. It might go against your mindset of doing as little as possible to keep the originality, but busted up seals can destroy an engine, and do it quickly. The job can be a bit tedious doing it in the car, but the benefits are piece of mind...and possibly a saved engine.

I would second this, and replacing the timing chain if its an original nylon piece.

Just a side thought, if it is equipped with a heat riser valve just below exhaust manifold make sure it either works or is stuck in the open position. 

427John

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing Oil to Heads
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2020, 03:30:44 PM »
If it does have the original umbrella seals in it, it would certainly be a good idea to at least replace them with new ones. It might go against your mindset of doing as little as possible to keep the originality, but busted up seals can destroy an engine, and do it quickly. The job can be a bit tedious doing it in the car, but the benefits are piece of mind...and possibly a saved engine.

I would second this, and replacing the timing chain if its an original nylon piece.

Just a side thought, if it is equipped with a heat riser valve just below exhaust manifold make sure it either works or is stuck in the open position.
How many people have pulled an intake manifold and found a huge coke/carbon boulder stuck to the bottom around the heat crossover.

Keith Stevens

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 222
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing Oil to Heads
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2020, 08:11:49 PM »
I have only had one FE with an iron intake. It was packed. I have seen chunks of valve stem seals that became brittle wind up sitting in the drain-backs a couple times.
The advice about getting rid of the nylon timing gear and replacing the umbrellas is extremely wise advice.