Author Topic: MPFI vs Carb-Style EFI  (Read 2090 times)

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CV355

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MPFI vs Carb-Style EFI
« on: November 03, 2020, 12:04:08 PM »
I have a Holley Super Sniper 550-512 system for our new 474 FE.  The tuner that I use is not a fan of these types of systems (Sniper, Atomic, Fast, etc) and is strongly recommending that I change to a multi-port fuel injection system.  There are concerns about cylinder ring washing during initial startup and tuning, so they are recommending using a carb for that initially.  I already have everything wired up to accept the Super Sniper system.

While MPFI is definitely the most controllable method (aside from direct, which obviously isn't an option), it brings a lot of cost and complexity that I am simply not ready for on this build.  Does anyone have input on this?  This isn't a race car, just a fun cruiser/show car.  I want it to have daily-driver worthy reliability, but obviously it will a weekend car at most. 

gregaba

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Re: MPFI vs Carb-Style EFI
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2020, 12:20:50 PM »
I would stay with the Sniper system. It sounds like the right system for what you want. I would start it and break it in with the carb and then not worry about it.
Greg

My427stang

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Re: MPFI vs Carb-Style EFI
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2020, 02:37:14 PM »
Mine are port injected, one simple (Edelbrock) 462 inch, one complex (Ford A9L with Quarterhorse rider chip, LS Chevy MAF, all kinds of tricks) 489 inches

I have installed both and think the TBs get you 90% there if you have the airflow and ignition control, and *may* give up a smidge of idle quality in some cases.  If you don't have the airflow, the port injected setups can get you to breathe deep for more $$$

The key is, either will provide vapor lock mitigation, tunability, and self adjustment...consider ignition control a huge benefit, after that it's smaller gains if TBs will breathe deep enough IMO
« Last Edit: November 04, 2020, 08:51:14 AM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

66FAIRLANE

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Re: MPFI vs Carb-Style EFI
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2020, 08:26:33 PM »
You have way more inches than me but I just fired my rebuilt 390. I had a Sniper on it a couple of years ago when it came off the road. I changed the cam to a milder Crane Fireball 294 I had laying around. I fired it with the carb that was set up for my old cam (7" vacuum), broke cam in and did about 20 miles. I was fairly disappointed with the way it performed but did not want to mess with the carby given the Sniper was going back on.

I put the Sniper back on a couple of weeks ago & although its not fully tuned the difference is night & day and it seems much easier to tune now than with the more lumpy cam. I now can't wait to put the firmer valve springs back in & let it rip!
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 11:58:13 PM by 66FAIRLANE »

CV355

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Re: MPFI vs Carb-Style EFI
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2020, 02:26:46 PM »
This is encouraging!  I appreciate the feedback as always guys!

I discussed this with the engine builder and they agreed with the posts here.  I'm going to stick with the Sniper system, but will break in the engine with a carb.  If the Sniper is problematic, I'll upgrade to MPFI. 


66FAIRLANE

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Re: MPFI vs Carb-Style EFI
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2020, 07:05:33 PM »
If you have it you may as well give it a go! Good luck and give me a yell if you want to exchange tuning tips & setup. Always interested.

BTW here is the link to my original install if interested. http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=5429.msg58251#msg58251
« Last Edit: November 04, 2020, 07:08:14 PM by 66FAIRLANE »

TomP

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Re: MPFI vs Carb-Style EFI
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2020, 01:25:40 PM »
I am curious about Ross' A9L setup. I have two sets of the factory 5.0EFI wiring that i was planning to use to put EFI on my 428.

Joe-JDC

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Re: MPFI vs Carb-Style EFI
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2020, 04:07:24 PM »
Curious #2.  The A9L work on any other Ford engine?  What about firing order difference between the 5.0 and FE?   Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

My427stang

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Re: MPFI vs Carb-Style EFI
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2020, 08:14:09 PM »
It's a relatively easy thing to do, of course actual firing order is determined by the plug wires, but the shutter wheel in the distributor also times the injectors at low speed.  The "easy" way could be to rearrange the injector wiring harness for low speed, and adjust injector size to use the stock Ford programming, once you get to higher RPM injector firing order it doesn't matter as much

However, I did not do it that way, I run a rider chip made by Moates, it allows me to use a program called Binary Editor on a laptop to change anything I want inside the A9L.  I can adjust any field Ford does. Quarterhorse is the access chip, but the right way to do it is build your program using a laptop and the Quarterhorse, then burn an F3 chip and put it in the A9L, then you don't have to worry about the battery in the Quarterhorse. (Of course, mine lasted 12 years, so it's not like that's a big danger, but I did recently swap the QH for a J3 chip which is a normal chip like we bought from Superchips, Hypertech etc in the 90s.

I changed firing order, injector timing, ignition timing, you name it, as well as change the values of some of the bolt on parts Some examples:modify injector slope and pulse duration, then injector timing to match cam events and firing order, timing initial, rate and total as well as modifiers for temp, vacuum etc, added a 102mm LS Mass Airflow Sensor and programmed accordingly, and shut off most the the fields that the A9L uses for emissions (decel fuel shut off, etc) 

There is an incredible amount of control once you get inside the computer  Additionally, I added a WB O2 sensor, although you cannot make the A9L use one, you can log up to 2 hours of driving through the chip, and then a second program, EEC Editor analyzes it with all the logged data and gives you recommendations to tweak it with the additional input of the WB O2.

Neat thing, you drive an hour, log it, analyze it in a parking lot, try the new load, if you don't like it, pull over and load the old one and voila, back to normal

The toughest thing is you can't get the program off the A9L, you have to get someone to build you your initial file, the F3 or QH bypasses the original chip and you need to load it.

I haven't done it, but I also believe you can access and control the Ford speed density computers and do the same, less a MAF of course, this would give you control without having to run a MAF sensor.   
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 08:17:35 PM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Joe-JDC

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Re: MPFI vs Carb-Style EFI
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2020, 10:20:54 PM »
Wow!  I guess I am about 20 years behind the curve of all this.  Believe it or not, I have one of the first Crane programmable hand held devices for the Mass Air conversion on my '86 GT when I installed a 351W with all the then new Motorsports EFI conversion parts.  I had/still have that '86 GT with 383W with all those same parts still working like factory.  I am so far behind the power curve with electronics now, that I am intimidated with my cell phone taking a picture.  Thank you for taking time to explain what you do, I will not be able to follow all that, but I do appreciate that it is possible and you have/can do the conversions.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500