Shoe type factory rocker geometry

[Cyclone03]

Bringing this back from the dead because I'm trying to set up my non-adjustable rockers and hyd roller. 

POP stands, rev valves, ED heads by Barry. New valve  job by a trusted local Ford guy.

Checking spring installed,heads not installed I just used a dial indicator to set to max lift.

At zero lift the pattern is right on the heal of the valve so close to the edge,it is on the edge.
At .600" lift the pattern is WIDE 3/4 way across the valve.

I shimmed the stands up .050" and the heel moved onto the valve and the pattern tightened up stopping past center ,again close to 3/4 way across.

Going to .100" tightens the pattern up ,call it all 1/3rds,the pattern is well centered.

Now here is another observation. I set my valve tip zero down .100",remover the shims and bolted the stands down. It is so close to the same result as the .100" shim it looks like the best option.

What am I missing?

Can .100 be cut from the tip of the valve (still above the retainer .050"+) ,or is the tip hardened?

So supper wide,near edge to edge or smallest pattern centered?

Hope you guys are up tonight.

[Barry_R]

Use the shim.  Do not cut the valve tips.  Most of them will have a fairly thin hardened (8645 IIRC) wafer friction welded to the top above the keeper groove (so much for the one piece valve marketing hype).  A very few Ferrea ones will be even thinner induction hardened.

[Cyclone03]

Steel or Aluminum for the shim/spacer?

[blykins]

Hardened steel. 

You can use valve spring shims, just make sure the ID of the hole seals around the feed hole in the head.  You can use some grease to keep the shims in place while you bolt the rocker arms down. 

If you're using end stands, you will need to be a little fancy with the shim as it will need to support the entire end stand.

[scott foxwell]

Bringing this back from the dead because I'm trying to set up my non-adjustable rockers and hyd roller. 

POP stands, rev valves, ED heads by Barry. New valve  job by a trusted local Ford guy.

Checking spring installed,heads not installed I just used a dial indicator to set to max lift.

At zero lift the pattern is right on the heal of the valve so close to the edge,it is on the edge.
At .600" lift the pattern is WIDE 3/4 way across the valve.

I shimmed the stands up .050" and the heel moved onto the valve and the pattern tightened up stopping past center ,again close to 3/4 way across.

Going to .100" tightens the pattern up ,call it all 1/3rds,the pattern is well centered.

Now here is another observation. I set my valve tip zero down .100",remover the shims and bolted the stands down. It is so close to the same result as the .100" shim it looks like the best option.

What am I missing?

Can .100 be cut from the tip of the valve (still above the retainer .050"+) ,or is the tip hardened?

So supper wide,near edge to edge or smallest pattern centered?

Hope you guys are up tonight.

If you go back to the beginning of the thread, I did the same thing and got the same results. However, I'm not 100% sure that tightening up the pattern on the valve tip is the right way to go. I think there is more to the shoe type rocker than adjusting the wear pattern. I've asked and asked over the years if someone could explain the geometry behind a factory rocker...no one ever has. I choose to "assume" the engineers had their reasons for how they had the rockers set up on these motors, so my conclusion is to set them up so you get the advertised lift @ the valve. "Techincally", to maintain factory geometry; if you have more than factory lift, you should be shortening the stands, not raising them. You'll notice that because of the design of the rocker, you can change the lift (and events) pretty significantly by changing the geometry. This is because as the rocker goes through it's motion, the actual physical ratio will change as the contact point between the valve and rocker moves outward on the shoe further away from the shaft. You have a cam with specific events that you have chosen...I would set the geometry to transfer that information from the cam to the valve as accurately as possible. JMO.

[Heo]

Without putting my whole soul in to this. I have always
assumed that the idea behind the profile on the stock
rockers is that you should set it up so it  "roll" on the
valve not rub.

So technically you should probably grind a different
radius for different lifts to get the best compromise
between roll ,rub,lift

Often you See the wear pattern on the rocker when a higher
lift cam is used is more wear toward the tip of the rocker
Just a thought...I don't know

[Cyclone03]

Without putting my whole soul in to this. I have always
assumed that the idea behind the profile on the stock
rockers is that you should set it up so it  "roll" on the
valve not rub.

So technically you should probably grind a different
radius for different lifts to get the best compromise
between roll ,rub,lift

Often you See the wear pattern on the rocker when a higher
lift cam is used is more wear toward the tip of the rocker
Just a thought...I don't know

Thanks for your comments.
With no shim the rocker is right on the edge of the valve,so shimming up is required to get the rocker on the valve tip face. My first thought was using the tins,but I cant seem to find where I hid them. I added a .030" shim and just got the rocker on the tip face, .050" allows the pattern to cross the full face of the valve and is centered. More shim from there tightens the pattern,I stopped at .120".

[babybolt]

I've seen rockers where the radius was tightened up for higher lift cams.

[Heo]

I've seen rockers where the radius was tightened up for higher lift cams.

What i was thinking about

[Heo]

Some one less computer illiterate than me should
be able to come up with some "animation" of that

[Cyclone03]

A good test goes a long way.
Busted out the checking springs and dial indicator.
No shim,stand bolted to head. Valve tip pattern started right on the intake edge of the valve and traveled past 3/4 the way across valve. Max lift was .535 on a .581 lift cam.

Next .050 shim. Pattern about 1/4 in and again past 3/4 the way across valve. ,584 lift

.100 shim started the pattern 1/3 away from the intake side and almost to the exhaust side edge of the valve. .587 lift

Like Brent said about .070 is about right. I went to a .0655 (1/16") shim ,got a pattern well centered and .157 wide and .586 total lift on a .581 cam.

Ordered some steel to make some usable shims.