Author Topic: Quench  (Read 7459 times)

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JimNolan

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Quench
« on: November 21, 2014, 05:05:03 AM »
I've got a question maybe can get answered for me. I built this engine a few years ago with a cam that just had .500 lift and proceeded to put pistons in it that put it .010 down in the hole at TDC. I then used .020 X 4.42 head gaskets that gave me a .030 quench. My CR is 10.7 and my DCR is 8.0. It runs fine, that's not the problem. But, from day one this engine will smoke a little when idling and a little when you've got the rpm's wound up (both pipes about the same). After 30K miles it's always remained about the same. The other engines I've built had cast pistons, this is the first forged piston engine I've built. When someone asks me about the smoke I always just told them it's because I'm running a .005 clearance on the piston walls. Don't get me wrong, it's not bad and I don't use a lot of oil. I just wondered if you guys thought it was the quench or piston clearance causing it to smoke. I'm running Viton valve seals so I really don't think it's coming from the top. Thanks, Jim
 

NIsaacs

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Re: Quench
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2014, 05:31:42 AM »
I have found that engines I build with a moly top ring will use oil, they never seem to seat for whatever reason. Maybe the final hone was to fine? Anyway I have went to the simple cast rings and no more problems with oil use.

Nick
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machoneman

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Re: Quench
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2014, 07:28:15 AM »
I've got a question maybe can get answered for me. I built this engine a few years ago with a cam that just had .500 lift and proceeded to put pistons in it that put it .010 down in the hole at TDC. I then used .020 X 4.42 head gaskets that gave me a .030 quench. My CR is 10.7 and my DCR is 8.0. It runs fine, that's not the problem. But, from day one this engine will smoke a little when idling and a little when you've got the rpm's wound up (both pipes about the same). After 30K miles it's always remained about the same. The other engines I've built had cast pistons, this is the first forged piston engine I've built. When someone asks me about the smoke I always just told them it's because I'm running a .005 clearance on the piston walls. Don't get me wrong, it's not bad and I don't use a lot of oil. I just wondered if you guys thought it was the quench or piston clearance causing it to smoke. I'm running Viton valve seals so I really don't think it's coming from the top. Thanks, Jim

Don't think so. Your smoke is more likely to come from another issue as I've run forged with a lot more wall clearance and similar quench and C/R numbers. The normal FE checks here should be done.

-Cut up a old valve cover, run up the engine until warm, slap on the cut cover and watch how high the oil comes up at idle.
-some covers (no baffles) allow one to more easily stick a dowel or a chunk of tubing into the hole. Mark the end with the engine off, fire it up and check to see just how high the oil rises.
-fixes include restricting the oil supply by adding a restrictor under the long bolted rocker arm stand that supplies oil to the top end.
-check too that at the rear of each head no excess gasket material or sealer impedes the flow of oil draining back to the valley. 
-if using a PCV valve, check it by removing it temporarily to see if the smoke subsides...although this could take awhile until the excess oil is sucked up. I'd use one but perhaps the spring it weak.
-last try a leakdown test. A compression check won't tell much here but a leakdown tester may show poorly seated rings.

Per ScotiaFE's past post:

The FE rockers are feed oil through a passage from the block up through the heads and the to the rockers.
A common practice is to restrict the oil passage.
With iron heads a Holley jet is stuck in the hole on the head below the rocker pedestal. A #70 jet is good.
On the Ed's the hole is larger and you have to make a restrictor. A 5/16" steel bar with a hole .070" drill in the centre and about 3/4" long
will do.
The rocker tins. They fit under the rocker pedestals and help direct the oil off the head and back into the valley.
There are two types. Early with the fingers and late with the square drop off. It is much easier to make the late style fit after market rockers than the early style. Although you can have go with the early ones.




« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 07:39:31 AM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

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Re: Quench
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2014, 04:38:38 PM »
Bob: I infer from your post that the the smoke source would be oil sucked through the PCV valve on the top of the valve cover and then circulated back into combustion via the intake manifold.  Yes?
Michael

machoneman

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Re: Quench
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2014, 05:31:56 PM »
Yep! Especially if the covers don't have baffles beneath the end of the PCV valve or the valve itself is weak. Another source if running a 'matic is a bad modulator valve that leaks ATF through the vacuum line into the intake manifold. Yank the rubber line section and see if it's wet with pink stuff.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 05:51:16 PM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

JimNolan

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Re: Quench
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2014, 06:56:35 PM »
This engine uses the 406/427 Aluminum that has the basket/aluminum mesh at the back with a PCV plugged into it. I take it directly to the carb suction in back. It's smoked since the PCV was new so I don't figure it's the PCV valve. Come to think of it, I've got a basket plate with a nipple on it that I could pull the PCV valve out of the basket and install it upstream inline with the hose. Hadn't thought of that. The modulator valve seems to work fine and it was installed new. I do have the needle backed out all the way to help from breaking my neck at slow speeds when it shifts gears though.

machoneman

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Re: Quench
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2014, 07:43:41 PM »
With that spare plate and nipple, you could add a length of rubber tubing exiting below the engine ala' the old road draft tube.  For testing only as I do believe in using a PCV valve. If you try this, it may take awhile to see if the smoke subsides. Another way to tell is to pop the carb and look closely inside the plenum. Black and somewhat fuel wet is o.k. but excess oil sucked into the plenum will appear. 
Bob Maag

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Re: Quench
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2014, 09:23:09 AM »
I have found that engines I build with a moly top ring will use oil, they never seem to seat for whatever reason. Maybe the final hone was to fine? Anyway I have went to the simple cast rings and no more problems with oil use.

Nick

And, for contrast, I run nothing but moly faced rings and with the proper bore finish, never have sealing or seating problems.  If everything is clean and the bore finished to the ring mfgs spec, the rings will seat before the cam break in is done. 

machoneman

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Re: Quench
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2014, 09:55:59 AM »
I'll venture that the hone was way too rough for the moly rings. I've also only used moly with the correct finish and it's never ever been an issue. Some really old school machinists insist that even contrary to the maker's instructions, one 'must' use a really rough bore finish even with moly rings! In fact, one really can't have a too-smooth bore, for a race engine at least, with top notch thin top rings according to my old pals at D.S.S. Racing from their Ford Pro Stock efforts of yore.

Dummies and some people never learn. I'm glad these fellows are retiring now from the trade rather rapidly. 
Bob Maag

NIsaacs

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Re: Quench
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2014, 10:29:28 AM »
I'll venture that the hone was way too rough for the moly rings. I've also only used moly with the correct finish and it's never ever been an issue. Some really old school machinists insist that even contrary to the maker's instructions, one 'must' use a really rough bore finish even with moly rings! 

Dummies and some people never learn. I'm glad these fellows are retiring now from the trade rather rapidly.

That's good to know, "see", I had it backwards, old school 70's and 80's machine work, and yes those guys are long gone. I was questioning my assembly, but when I built wet sleeve engines that come with the kits, I didn't have any issues. I wanted moly rings because most of my work/driving was off highway, very dusty. I finally went to simple cast iron rings and no more oil use. I am sure they will wear out quicker thou, and will go back to moly rings on my next build. The machinist that I use now is awesome but the waiting list is horrible.

Nick 
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Ford428CJ

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Re: Quench
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2014, 11:13:14 AM »
I'll second that! You have to be careful on the rings you use and the finish of the walls plays a big part of ring sealing. You can't mismatch rings with the bore finish you have. Moly rings takes a good set but if the bore finish is to rough.... It may not! Always go by what the manufacturer recommends.....
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Mike Caruso

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Re: Quench
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2014, 06:40:59 PM »
Hi Jim,
You have just had great help to check on your problem. I would like to add one that I run into more than you would think. Did you have any carb problems early on? Excessive gasoline could have washed the oil off the rings and cylinder wall. Upper ring travel now is polished due to lack of lube. The cross hatch looks perfect but the problem is now it is smooth as glass. It has been the #1 cause of an oil burner.
Love your car.
Mike
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Barry_R

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Re: Quench
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2014, 10:48:26 PM »
Define rough...

My427stang

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Re: Quench
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2014, 10:01:58 AM »
Late to this game and interested in what people are using for bore surfaces, but, I'd be very interested in hearing what valve guide clearance is and what style guide or liner you are using.

Smoke up top and at start could easily be a valve seal or guide issue  / oil control problem up top.  I cannot imagine quench causing oil burn and a forged piston expands once it gets some heat in it (less now than the old days, but they still do)  Heck, I ran a a 431 inch 427 with .011 piston to wall clearance for years and it was a little noisy if real cold, but not an oil burner.

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