Author Topic: coated headers  (Read 11039 times)

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jayb

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Re: coated headers
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2014, 03:22:36 PM »
Since Jay mentioned comparing coated to uncoated headers for power production,  I'm requesting if perhaps Jay could try to determine coated vs un-coated in heating the surroundings.  How could someone accurately measure the differences in heat being produced from the header tubing? I don't have a clue if a coated header surface could run at a cooler temp then an un-coated header surface all else remaining the same on the engine. Or is it just a reduction in the amount of heat radiating from the coated  tubing  vs  heat radiating from the uncoated tubing?....How you'd ever measure that sort of stuff?????

BB, I think that just measuring the tube temperature with an IR heat gun would give a pretty good indication.  I'll bet the coated headers would run a lot cooler...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

fe66comet

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Re: coated headers
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2014, 03:47:23 PM »
I know the ceramic coated pistons have a huge boost in heat resistance so it would for sure slow absorbed heat.

Qikbbstang

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Re: coated headers
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2014, 11:47:31 PM »
Just playing devil's advocate, you could have a 5/16" thick mirror and a 5/16" steel plate laying over the top of two heavily boiling pots of water for 5minutes and I got a feeling the steel and ultra-reflective mirrors top surface are going to be almost identical temps - right about 212F......... Remember that 1,500F exhaust gas stream is physically touching that header tubing there is not much if any reflecting going on.   I'm real sure a 0.01-0.05" layer of ceramic coating has virtually no insulating ability at all.  In other words you bolt two pieces of ceramic coated steel together and two pieces of  un-coated steel together and there will be no difference in heat transfer between them.

Has to be tough to dig up matching sets of headers in coated and uncoated - near mission impossible.

Sooooo Jay do you happen to have an IR heat gun in your bag of tricks?.............sure would be interesting to find out what ever it reads.

cjshaker

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Re: coated headers
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2014, 12:25:29 AM »
Just playing devil's advocate, you could have a 5/16" thick mirror and a 5/16" steel plate laying over the top of two heavily boiling pots of water for 5minutes and I got a feeling the steel and ultra-reflective mirrors top surface are going to be almost identical temps - right about 212F......... Remember that 1,500F exhaust gas stream is physically touching that header tubing there is not much if any reflecting going on.   I'm real sure a 0.01-0.05" layer of ceramic coating has virtually no insulating ability at all.  In other words you bolt two pieces of ceramic coated steel together and two pieces of  un-coated steel together and there will be no difference in heat transfer between them.

That's not how it works, BB. Since the ceramic reflects the heat, there is less thermal transfer. So the outside of the tube does not radiate as much heat because it's kept inside. I can show this process on my wood stoves. I have the one in my house surrounded by sheets of stainless steel, which reflects heat and has less thermal transfer than steel. If I used a sheet of steel, you would barely be able to lay your hand on the backside after some time, and forget about laying it on the front side, it'll burn you. With stainless sheets, not only does the surface stay cool to the touch but the back actually stays cold. It's because of the reflective properties of stainless. The difference is substantial. I do this to radiate as much heat back out into the room as possible instead of the wall absorbing it. The ceramic coating works in the same way.

Has to be tough to dig up matching sets of headers in coated and uncoated - near mission impossible.

Since Hooker offers their headers in coated and uncoated, I'm guessing it wouldn't be that hard, just not cheap.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

machoneman

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Re: coated headers
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2014, 05:12:12 AM »
I'll suggest that the hp change on a dyno would be measurable but minimal whereas as mentioned above, in car hp would increase merely due to a cooler air-fuel charge (assuming carb or EFI air comes from underhood and not a ducted exterior air source).  And yes, using a infrared temp gun just like mechanics and racers use does show a marked reduction in underhood heat, a reduction that can be easily catalogued on a dyno.   
Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: coated headers
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2014, 08:34:14 AM »


Sooooo Jay do you happen to have an IR heat gun in your bag of tricks?.............sure would be interesting to find out what ever it reads.

Sure, I got one of those.  If I end up doing the before and after coating test, I'll get the temperature data too.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

mike7570

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Re: coated headers
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2014, 04:32:03 PM »

Qikbbstang

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Re: coated headers
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2014, 07:59:07 PM »
I just have problems with the differences between heated matter in contact with a surface compared to radiated heat at the surface of the tubing.  If you have 200F water pumped through a two-inch stainless tube at 100gpm would ceramic coating make any difference in temps vs un-coated?............. Regardless how it works I presume there'd be a similar result with compressed gases at high flow rates and of course gasses turn into fluids given enough pressure.
   Had to chuckle at Burns Stainless throwing those impressive sounding percentages out: "Typical 1010 carbon (mild) steel conducts 219% more heat per foot than do the types of stainless steel we use in header fabrication."   My college Statistics teacher introduced the class as: Sexual Fantasies at 1:00PM or how to lie with numbers"
  I've seen the nasty effects of excessive heating on higher carbon stainless. Stainless sheet will "corrode" like sheet steel wherever it even starts glowing red. 

fe66comet

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Re: coated headers
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2014, 08:32:02 PM »
That was my experience with the coated steel also, the fact that all materials degrade with heat. Maybe the combination of ceramic and stainless would be a interesting combination. The properties of stainless steel are better for heat resistance VS steel.  In actuality cast iron is one of the best materials but weight is the problem there. I wonder how titanium or a ceramic impregnates alloy would react? Titanium I have worked with quite a bit with furnaces, motorcycles and bicycles and other than being somewhat brittle it lends well to stress and heat.

ScotiaFE

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Re: coated headers
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2014, 01:51:22 PM »
Inconel Headers. They cost a lot. ::)

Qikbbstang

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Re: coated headers
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2014, 08:11:47 PM »
  Here's a great article from the far-side on header science:

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/exhaust_system_technology.htm