Author Topic: Hyd vs solid ? - split lifts and durations .  (Read 4240 times)

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bn69stang

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Hyd vs solid ? - split lifts and durations .
« on: May 14, 2013, 09:50:14 AM »
Is there a need split lift , split duration ? . Can a 433 inch f e benefit , a lot of you guy s run the 282 s or the 294 s  and it seems like most of the hydraulics are split . what would the power diff be between a hyd 240 / 246 @ 50 -.584  .588 ..  and  solid  240 / 246 @ 50 .598 .608 or compare the 294 s t0 those ?
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

ScotiaFE

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Re: Hyd vs solid ? - split lifts and durations .
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 12:13:20 PM »
This is from Isky's site.
I like single pattern cams.
I like things symmetrical. ::)
 
"Most stock camshafts from American production V8, V6 and 4 cylinder engines manufactured today are ground with the longer exhaust lobe duration. Or, another way of looking at this is that they are ground with shorter intake durations! The former embraces the viewpoint that either the Exhaust Ports or Exhaust Pipe system is somewhat restrictive, and is in need of an assist. The latter suggests that the intake system is rather efficient and cam timing can be trimmed back a bit with out much sacrifice in power, in order to maximize throttle response and cruising efficiency.

Take your pick here. There is no absolutely correct viewpoint - because both are probably true! In a stock engine running at conservative RPM levels, for the sake of overall efficiency, fuel economy and a quiet smooth running engine, this staggering of intake and exhaust duration is quite common and appropriate.

However, High Performance is another thing entirely. Change one factor, let's say in this case, the exhaust system (installing headers and larger pipes) and you have just negated in most cases, the need for that longer exhaust lobe. Now couple this change with a different intake system and camshaft and you have really scrambled the equation. But, wait just a moment. Why is it that so many people (racers & cam grinders alike) insist on running a cam with longer exhaust duration regardless of what equipment is employed? The answer is "habit". Most of them have been somewhat successful in doing it their way and will probably never change unless virtually forced by circumstances to do so.

Before we go any further however let's review what it actually is we are trying to do with an engine when we attempt to make more power. Our best result comes when we are cognizant of the fact that an engine is basically an air pump. We pump it in and out (although in a different form) and we have problems when one side or the other is restricted. Balance or the equilibrium or flow should be our objective, unless of course we are not trying to make more horsepower!

Example #1 (Oval track racing) Here, I have often observed that the most experienced drivers are those who are most likely to run a single pattern (equal on intake and exhaust duration) cam. Why? Because such cams always, I repeat always make more torque! These veterans have a more educated foot and greater experience in feathering the throttle in the corners. They can therefore, utilize the benefit of added torque, in the lower to mid RPM range, to their advantage.

Their counterparts, the younger drivers on the circuit, generally are not as experienced and may at times actually get "crossed up" in the corners especially with a lighter car or when they are learning the ropes. In their case, a longer exhaust duration is often the more appropriate choice. It will often help them to drive better, more "flat footed" if you will, without consequence. But please for the sake of accuracy, let us be truthful. The benefit comes from an actual bleeding off of low to mid range torque, which is always what happens when Exh. Duration is lengthened, not from any improvement. The improvement, (if any) would come because of an improvement in scavenging at the extreme upper end of the power curve and would usually be marginal at best. Yet the so-called "extra power" potential of a longer Exh. Duration cam is most often why they are touted - power most people are backing away from at the end of the strait away!

Example #2 (Drag Racing) At the drag strip it's a little different and I feel more honest. Here, racers have long enjoyed longer exhaust and longer durations across the board (If I may add specifically for the purpose of "killing" low-end torque) to keep the tires from too easily breaking lose. This has been successful and sometimes actually results in a slight increase in top end power - something you can actually use in drag racing since it is a full throttle endeavor through the lights. Keep in mind here though, it's quite possible that a longer duration cam overall would have done just as well or better. In other words if you needed that longer exhaust for top end, perhaps the intake could have benefited from such a lengthening as well.

One of my favorite expressions is how "The Drag Racing mentality has infiltrated the ranks of Oval Track". Many have crossed over and made the switch in the past 10-15 years and some have brought their preconceived notions about how to cam an engine with them. A few may actually read these concepts and if they do so will at least come away with a better understanding of what they are doing. On the other hand they also could find that this information might actually help their cars to run just a bit faster!

Note: Readers may find Camfather Ed Iskenderian's Top Tuners Tip #33 "Can an Exhaust System Over-Scavenge the Combustion Chambers" to be a relevant precursor. "


plovett

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Re: Hyd vs solid ? - split lifts and durations .
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 06:09:00 PM »
My take.   I don't think a longer or shorter intake or exhaust duration necessarily implies there is a deficiency in either system.  They are different systems (though linked) that operate under different pressure differentials, volumes, temperatures, lengths, etc.   I don't think they necessarily should have the exact same duration and lift.   

The ideal cam for an engine/use may or may not have the exact same lobes on the intake and exhaust.   Not likely though, in my opinion. 

Nonetheless, the trends mentioned are generally true and can help decide what cam to get.   Single patterns cams tend to make more torque.   Longer exhaust duration tends to kill some low end power and keep the power going longer past the power peak.   There are other aspects of cam timing equally or even more important as well.   

As for hydraulic vs. solid.   A rule of thumb is you need to have 8-10 degrees more duration @0.050" in a solid cam to have a similar power range to a hydraulic.   If you had a hydraulic that you liked with 230 degrees @0.050" duration, you would want a solid with 238-240 degrees @0.050" to have a similar rpm range. 

In general solids will make more power and allow you to control the valve train up to higher rpms. 

By the way, that 240/246, .598",.608" solid cam I mentioned earlier requires a fair amount of spring pressure to run at higher rpms.   The one mentioned had an XTQ intake lobe and a TL exhaust lobe.   FE's with their 1.73 or 1.76 rocker ratio can cause difficulties with aggressively-lobed cams.   I ended up using around 150lbs closed/400 lbs. open pressure to keep control of the valves up to 6500 rpm.

paulie




bn69stang

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Re: Hyd vs solid ? - split lifts and durations .
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2013, 03:28:36 PM »
thanks for the input guys , I think i will have a cold one and digest this info .
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

R-WEST

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Re: Hyd vs solid ? - split lifts and durations .
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2013, 10:30:38 PM »
Quote
and I feel more honest
  :o  LOL!!

I think cams are about as much black magic as science. 

Mebbe Jay or someone could put together a sample engine and dyno it with a single pattern cam (CC 270, for instance) then do the same cam with 8-10 degrees more exhaust (like a 270 intake lobe and 282 exhaust lobe), and post the results.  I'm sure he has nothing else going on right now...   ;)

If I just had the time, and money, and a dyno....   :(

bn69stang

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Re: Hyd vs solid ? - split lifts and durations .
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2013, 04:22:17 PM »
THANKS Plovett for all your input i appreciate it ..
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..