Old JJ really came through for me today....

[frnkeore]

Sounds like a perfect class for a 4.125 x 3.5 engine (374.19 ci), with Blair's heads and a wild cam

[wayne]

 Great job on jj the 500 holley 2bbl is a great carb i bought one when they first came out really wakes a 289 mustang up always thought two of them on a two four intake may be worth a try.

[Drew Pojedinec]

Great job on jj the 500 holley 2bbl is a great carb i bought one when they first came out really wakes a 289 mustang up always thought two of them on a two four intake may be worth a try.

I did three of them on a 3x2 setup.  Dunno how they worked out yet as customer is still building.  Ran good for me but I didn't have the throttle setup to drive them.

I kinda want to make a 3x2 4412 setup with the center having annulars, but I doubt I'll have the time in the near future.

[Royce]

Jerry C and I did a tunnel ram on a 333 Y-Block with 2 2bbl 650s.. Worked really well...

[Falcon67]

How the hell did I miss this thread LOL.  This like how I want the 351C to end up in the Falcon.  But have spent the last 2 months fighting gremlins in the single 4 setup.

Do you have the specs on dual 600 calibrations handy?  Would like to compare.  Not outside of sending my pair to Drew either.  My ideal setup here for the 351 is the gas tunnel ram and a single 750 on methanol.  Had bogging issues with it, but after a long series of issues I think that has all been in the ignition.  Which has been replaced with a no bullsnot 7AL-3 MSD box.

The 351C ram is just too cool not to find a way to run it

[Drew Pojedinec]

Do you have the specs on dual 600 calibrations handy?  Would like to compare.  Not outside of sending my pair to Drew either. 

you have drill bits bro, you do NOT need to send me your carbs.
List number         1850
Type            4160
Primary
Float            side hung
Booster            straight .136
Pump nozzle         .025
Pump type and cam      white #2
Idle air bleed         .063
High speed bleed      .031
Metering block#         na
Main Jet         66
Power valve         6.5
PVCR            .039
Emulsion         2@.028
Idle Feed restriction      .028

Secondary
Mechanical or Vacuum?      vs
Spring color         light white
Diapghram length      std
Float            side hung
Booster            .136 straight
Idle air bleed         .028
High speed bleed      .028
Metering block/plate#      9
Idle Feed Restriction      .031
Jet size         .067


just a std basic 1850 build.  Main focus is reducing pvcr and idle air bleed.  Single 4v are no different than 2x4, main issues are that they want to be set richer at idle and leaner at wot.  If you plunk two stock 1850s on a 2x4 setup, it'll run... and run ok for the most part, but you'll have lean shudders off idle and 10:1 at WOT.
If he'd had 75 more ci, the secondaries would have functioned more "normally."  a 352 simply needs to rev pretty high to get those secondaries moving.  I guess I could have put a vac tube in the venturi, but I find two things to be true when shipping out carbs to an engine I can't tune.
1. no one complains about a slightly rich idle, but they'll freak out if it's too lean... heck they'll even claim it's too rich due to the smell.
2. A massive bog if the secondaries flop open gets a complaint.  Secondaries being slow to open typically goes unnoticed.

the 660s I did for him are a little unique with a few things most people wouldn't think of....  I'll talk about that some other day.

[Falcon67]

Thanks very much for that.  I may have already done some of those mods to the 1850s.  I actually used a purple spring in the back of both to slow those secondary openings and hopefully reduce opening flutter.  This 351C is shift limited to 6300 due to the hydro rollers in it, so they'd not open much anyway. It runs through the lights 1/8 mile right at 6000.  I'd rather it leave hard and pull decent than anything.  Had some stumble issues testing the ram and an alcohol 750 but over the last 18 months I think a lot of those were the ignition system starting to fail.  Spent a lot of time chasing ghosts for sure. 7AL-3 box installed this week with a single 750, have not drag tested it yet.  Once I get that fixed I'll go back to testing the ram.  4600+ stall, stage at 2200 so there's not a lot of "off idle" to worry about.  Mostly getting the pump shot right and having enough to carry through for the mains to start up.  Mine are 1:1, don't see any need for progressive unless that's the only way to get the back one to delay pump shot to carry through the 60' cone.  I usually run with a single 650DP for bracket racing, but I'd have more fun with the ram for sure LOL.  Why not.

[Drew Pojedinec]

ideas:
-run two different pump nozzles, get crazy, throw a .035 and a .025 in there
-or get your mains online sooner, if you don't want to reduce hsab, make mainwell smaller
-use a restriction and light spring for vs (ie, take the ball out, drill/tap main body for a restrictor, start at .050 and go bigger as needed

You say not a lot of idle to worry about, but richer idle can help with the before mains issue.

[Leny Mason]

Brett I would not of guessed that much horse power difference between the Autolite and the Holley, I used to use the Autolite for fuel mileage in the FE trucks.

[MeanGene]

Hey Bilge Rat- have you ever messed with paired 4777's? I ran a pair on my Edelbrock crossram in the late 70's, "trick" mods of the day, cut down air horns etc., pretty good heads and a 324/590 Sig Erson, and it ran pretty well- extremely responsive. I recently pickup up another 351C Weiand tunnel that was off a 351,, also with 4777s mounted sideways and "dyno-tuned" by someone "around Concord". PO said it ran real well, I have not touched it since bringing it home. I also have a set of those 750dp "tunnel ram" carbs that were supposed to be the trick replacement for the 660's that kinda went bust. And a pair of 660s on a Dove TW on the shelf

[Falcon67]

On the ram, I usually tinker to get best vacuum, then open up the idle screws at least 1/2 turn more.  You pointed out a key thing that people miss - if you smell it, it's lean - not fat.  The 302 with a ram and two 1406 Edelbrocks liked .035 on the shooters.  I think I have 37s in the 1850s. The runner volume in a 351C ram is way more than in a 302 style ram and velocity in the intake is lower, so that's part of the problem moving the car at the hit.  If I remember, I got it to leave but it felt like it ran out of shot just before the 60'.  It would nose down a bit then pick up and go.  Was thinking maybe a Reo pump on the back with a 35 or 37 to extend the shot but will have to add at least 1/2" spacers under the carbs to give clearance for the pump. 

I try to think "what works for one 4 bbl on a 4 cylinder should work as two 4bbls on an 8".  I've got two 650DPs/4777-2s, that could be worth a try too - that's a lot of pump timing and tinkering LOL.  Mounted sideways would make a 7.50 1/8 mile car look like a Pro Stock haha. 

[Drew Pojedinec]

Hey Bilge Rat- have you ever messed with paired 4777's? I ran a pair on my Edelbrock crossram in the late 70's, "trick" mods of the day, cut down air horns etc., pretty good heads and a 324/590 Sig Erson, and it ran pretty well- extremely responsive. I recently pickup up another 351C Weiand tunnel that was off a 351,, also with 4777s mounted sideways and "dyno-tuned" by someone "around Concord". PO said it ran real well, I have not touched it

I haven't messed with dual 4777's.  I'm a huge fan of the early 4778 with the bell boosters and staging linkage.  That was a possible alternative for Brent as well as I had two on the shelf.  I do wish it had the larger bells like CJ primary or AC/AD carbs.  They are real zippy when the boosters come online.
No expert on the subject, but AF ratio isn't always equal.  Bells feel so much stronger like Annulars even if at the same AF ratio as straight leg or downlegs.

[Falcon67]

When I get the basic issues sorted on the car I'll set up the Innovate on board data logging.  Then I can start playing with some real feedback from the car. The baseline setup is a 4777, leave 2200, shift 6300, 7.55-7.57 @ 88.5 MPH. It was printing tickets in May, then everything fell apart. Working to get back to base.