Vacuum advance of Tri-power FE

[wideglidejoe]

I've recently picked up a 63 1/2 Gal XL 500 w/406 tri-power.  The dual point distr is mech adv only, I'd like to be able to pull the dual point distr, put it on a shelf, and run a MSD 8595 vac adv distr.  The 3 Holley carbs don't have a ported vacuum connection available, it only has manifold vacuum available going to the tranny vacuum modulator.  Does anyone know of an adjustable vacuum adv canister that will fit a MSD 8595 distr?  I called MSD, they said that Moroso did.  I called Moroso, they only make one for the GM HEI distr.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!
Joe

[cammerfe]

You may be working hard for not much. When my '64 Custom/427 was new I made a trip from Detroit to Sebring FL for the 12-hour race. We ran over 100 MPH on the better portions of the road going down and back (only some portions of I-75 were open at that time)---using 8.20 tires and a 3.50 gear. The best tankful was just better than 16 MPG and we averaged 11.7 for the entire trip. 100 MPH probably had all eight barrels open.

KS

[shady]

the vacuum ports on the holleys are in the metering blocks. the holes are threaded but just bottom out in the casting. I never looked at it, but maybe you can drill into a passage & open them up. maybe somebody knows or has done it. worth a look.

[Joe-JDC]

I would suggest you take the points plate up out of the distributor housing, clean it thoroughly, and lubricate the weights attaching points, make sure the springs are working, and reassemble.  Set the initial timing at 12*, and rev the engine slowly and watch the timing on the damper.  Is it getting 38-40* total?  What is the timing at 2000 rpm?  2500 rpm?  If you do not have total timing of 38-40* by 2500 rpm, then with the engine off, bump the engine over until the heavy spring tang is showing through the slot, and bend it slightly with a common screwdriver so that the spring loses tension and retry.  If the timing is all in by 2000 rpm, then you need to repeat the procedure but this time add tension to the soft spring by bending the tang away a small amount.  Check timing.  It should have a smooth increase from 12* all the way to 38* all in by 2500 rpm.  It takes a little trial and error, but the dual point will run well, and still get decent gas mileage if the timing curve is correct.  If it pings, you need to extend the soft spring a small amount to get the advance to come in a little slower.  Good luck with the learning curve-pun intended.  Joe-JDC

[gdaddy01]

thanks for the info on timing . like hearing real world stories , driving a dual four 427 , down the open road at 100 mph , that is cool .

[wideglidejoe]

Thanks to everyone for their comments!! 

cammerfe, that sounds like fun!  I was hoping to pick up a little fuel mileage in "cruise mode" if I made some changes.

shady, good idea!  I haven't ran the carb numbers yet to see if they are the correct Holley's, if they are I don't want to do any mod's that aren't reversible, but I could pick up a new metering block for the center carb and modify it, saving the original metering block.  Or maybe just find a metering block that already has the ported vacuum that will fit my center 2 bbl.   I've also heard or read that T-birds with tri-power had a center carb with a ported vacuum connection and a vac adv dizzy.  Anyone seen that?  Or know of a part # on that carb?

Joe-JDC, thanks for the comments on adjusting the dual point dizzy!  I've owned FE dual point dizzy's in the past, but never re-curved them.  I already have the MSD 8595 w/vac adv canister from other FE projects, but if I don't use it, I can always keep your notes for the dual point dizzy and use them.  I use a MSD 8594 w/o vac adv on another FE, I'm right there with you on the initial and total advance for FE's.  FE's like a lot more timing than the original factory spec's.  In fact, I'm probably a little more aggressive than you, I'm running 18* initial and 38* total on the 8594, but it's in a 2,300 lb car w/manual tranny and 48 IDA Weber's.

My final comments; I didn't say so in my original post, but my Galaxie is a 406 6V clone, it was originally a 390 Z-code car.  I'm not adverse to running a MSD dizzy and coil, or anything else that isn't "original" to a 406 car, but I'm not gonna do any permanent mod's to the carbs, intake, etc. that would decrease their value.  Anything I don't use (dual point dizzy, etc.) will be shelved for later.  It currently has 4.30 gears, I'll be changing to 3.50 gears in the near future.  Even with 4.30 gears, it is sluggish now, but I think that is due to the COM tranny that probably needs some attention, along with the timing issues being corrected.  Anyone have any experience about changing out a COM tranny for a FE C6?  I have a C6, but I haven't had the car long enough or had the time to measure and compare dimensions of the COM to the C6.

Thanks again for your time and comments!
Joe

[Faron]

The metering block can be modified , What scares me is the advice for timing curve , using Race Gas would be the only safe deal with THAT suggestion , waiting till you HEAR it Ping , Really ?? this is 2016 Gas is Different , we have tools besides EARS , I would NEVER suggest waiting till you hear it Ping , of course when its NOT your engine and its on the internet what could happen , If I sound a bit Cynical I am tired of hearing the if it pings back it off ( then I get It worked for me excuse ) Also  a Good Vacuum advance Dist ( I prefer a OEM Ford Unit ) with the proper curve and a Electronic conversion will not only Match any Factory Dual point for Performance but will also give a 1-3 mpg Boost I will end with this Statement , The Number One Killer Of an Otherwise Healthy Engine , IS Detonation!! and its usually from Mild amounts that accumulate damage over Time , You Engine Your Money

[Joe-JDC]

Not going to get into an argument with you, but I have an automotive degree, and have been curving distributors since 1969.  I simply was trying to get him to consider using the dual point distributor, and giving him a few pointers on how to tweak it is he so chose to do so.  IF it pinged, then I gave a suggestion of how to increase spring tension to slow the rate of advance until the detonation stops.  The degrees for a Ford distributor curve at differing rpms is available through old Ford Muscle Parts catalogs, and they work well for Ford distributors with either dual points, vacuum advance, or dual advance.  If he needs further help, then he should consult a professional such as yourself.  Been doing this since 1962 when I built my first 292Y Block.  Joe-JDC

[Faron]

I understand what your saying , and I am not looking to argue ,I ve read other Posts from You and you give great advice / help , this wasnt your best ( sorry )  My Point is--- suggesting that he  wait till or IF it Pings using ones sense of Hearing to determine a course of action, is wrong , And I would think you know better , , this is not the first time Ive posted about ( wait till or if it Pings ) suggestion , its just the latest, repeating old BAD Tech is never a help and having a degree or saying you been doing this since only makes it worse ( IMHO ) VERIFY Specs suggest SAFE options , I look at every Question like it would be a Liability or it would come out of my pay if I'm Wrong , when giving advise  ,  ok done with this. 

[LargeRickhead66]

Seems to me that Joe's methods are sound, and very much as I've been doing for many years also. I'll add that a MityVac pump with a vacuum gauge in it can be used to tailor the vacuum advance curve also.  If you've got some other superior sense about detonation what is it? What is your recommended curve?

[Faron]

Oh Boy , My so called Superior sense is NOT relying on my ears but by knowing the Curve in the dist ,then applying it to the application using Caution , as for What do I recommend , it varies quite a bit , depending on the combo. Joe Knows Better IMHO