Author Topic: My findings on a miss at idle  (Read 4398 times)

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gordonr390

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My findings on a miss at idle
« on: November 29, 2015, 04:03:47 PM »
  Hello I'm Gordon from Va.Beach Virginia,
I bought a 69 S code Mach I a month ago ("my first muscle car") and have been going through a lot of small issues and correcting them as I see them.
      In the pursuit of making my 69 390 run optimal I ran across cylinder no#7 miss-firing at idle only and @ higher rpms it does not. It had lack of power and intermittently an uneven power issue when I first drove it home. I had found the dizzy was coated with aluminum chips inside due to lack of oil making it to the bushing causing the mech advance to drop down and flycut into the housing. After correcting this and replacing a bad vacuum advance with an adjustable unit to boot, the engine ran much better. But no#7 still has a miss @ idle.
        I put my vacuum gauge on it and it read out a very steady 20"and this engine burns no oil upon start up or under accel.

1- Checked for avail kv @ idle and had 25k on no#7 plug wire. (FYI for a test I did hook up 12volts directly to my Pertonix module and got an additional 3k over just using the resistance wire supply)
2- Pulled the plug and it looked fine also compared it to a good cylinder. Note: no oil was on the plug either
3- Performed a compression test and it read out 136psi. I checked #5 and it had 172psi.
4- Performed a running compression test. Result was 62psi (to low)
5- Performed a leak down. Hot engine. Result was 2%@100psi
6- Pulled the valve cover and observed the rockers while the engine ran. Looked good to me comparatively to the other cylinders.

The resulting outcome of leak down test is baffling. I would have expected at least 15-20%. I am leaning to the belief this cylinder either has a bent rod that wasn't caught in a previous repair or has a wrong piston installed. I tried finding compression readings with possible wrong pistons installed online but found nothing. I thought about using a bore scope visually look in the cylinder to see if the piston sits lower than another but I think it's a fruitless endeavor. Any ideas before I pull the head and do a visual?

ScotiaFE

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Re: My findings on a miss at idle
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2015, 04:23:49 PM »
Hi Gordon
I would look more at a valve issue than a rod issue.
Bent rods normally let you know pretty quick. With lots of damage.
Could also be a cross fire, it happens on FE's sometimes between 7 and 8.
Also make sure you have a perfect ground from the engine to the chassis.

cjshaker

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Re: My findings on a miss at idle
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2015, 05:33:43 PM »
Several things don't make sense here.

FIRST, when you say the advance mechanism dropped down, that just doesn't make sense to me. That would either require the entire shaft dropping down, which means you would have MUCH bigger issues such as the gear not engaging the cam properly, or you've got a major malfunction in the upper half of the distributor, which would have nothing to do with the bushing. Why do you say the bushing wasn't getting oil? Is the hole plugged, not feeding properly from the engine, or what? Did you replace the distributor, repair it somehow?

Second, how do you do a "running compression" test? Never heard or seen that done.

Third, that 172 compression result seems pretty high. Was that only on #5? If it is, that's very strange. Is your gauge accurate? A cheap gauge can be off by a mile. If it's reading 30lbs or so high, that would put #7 down in the "problem" category.

Fourth, a leakdown of 2% is really REALLY low. That alone makes me question either your tool or how the testing is being done.

Fifth, you mentioned nothing about checking the plug wires (actually, this should be first). Did you Ohm them out and see what reading you got? Have you tried a new set of wires or rerouting them as Howie suggested? This would probably be my first move. A bad wire can show up at idle yet still give just enough OOMPH to fire the cylinder at speed. To check this cheaply, just switch 1 wire with #7 and see if the miss follows the wire.

The biggest problem is that you don't know anything about how the engine was built. Not your fault obviously. If some idiot was just trying to make a dollar on the car, who knows what parts were used in the engine. It wouldn't be the first time that a hodge-podge of parts were thrown together just to get a "running engine" for a sale. Hopefully that's not the case.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 05:41:51 PM by cjshaker »
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

gordonr390

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Re: My findings on a miss at idle
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2015, 07:14:18 PM »
   On the shaft of the dist was rust and and old oil build up that fully loaded up the oil path (on the shaft). It the only assumption/reason I could see. The thrust side of the bushing had been worn down about .150". Seeing that the dizzy was correct for the engine I ordered a reman dizzy and gutted it to repair mine. The vacuum advance on the reman unit was way out of spec so I had to order another one.
    A running compression test is performed by resetting an installed compression tester while a engine is running and reading the results. It is a reliable test. No#5 tested @75lbs. (I've performed many running compression tests and found other issues such as valves not fully closing once the lifters pump up. Problems result from the valves terribly beat but the static comp would be good. Or catching certain stages of worn cam lobes).
   
I used 2 gauges as I agree with you. One Snap-on and a Mac digital recorder.

    On the leak down I brought the piston up on tdc and ran the test straight forward with 100psi in the cylinder. Thats high as my tester reads.
     I did test the wire at first with an ohm meter. Then stressed the wire while the engine was running with an adjustable spark tester set at 25 kilovolts at the plug end. If any issue will show it will do it with this test. I'll swap the wire check to see if I missed something though.
       For H of it I changed the plug and ran an intake cleaner through it and quickly realized it was just an exercise. I've read about different pistons options for the 390 but didn't know how the comp readings could change. Didn't know if I was chasing a non issue.
 



My427stang

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Re: My findings on a miss at idle
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2015, 08:26:32 PM »
Well, you could have one oddball piston, but I doubt it would skip.  My hunch is maybe a loose valve guide or bad seat that is less affected when things are static to explain the change in compression. 

I do have to say that I have never heard of a running compression test though, do you pull the valve core out of it and watch the gauge?  otherwise it really is just a normal test with a higher rpm than the starter.

BTW, I have both a Mac digital and Snap-on standard setup, and I have never trusted that Mac.  First couple of times it worked right but never found it to be reliable after that, same hole was always different.  Looks pretty though...give me my Snap-on gauge every time.
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

gordonr390

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Re: My findings on a miss at idle
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2015, 09:27:52 PM »
Well, you could have one oddball piston, but I doubt it would skip.  My hunch is maybe a loose valve guide or bad seat that is less affected when things are static to explain the change in compression. 

I do have to say that I have never heard of a running compression test though, do you pull the valve core out of it and watch the gauge?  otherwise it really is just a normal test with a higher rpm than the starter.

BTW, I have both a Mac digital and Snap-on standard setup, and I have never trusted that Mac.  First couple of times it worked right but never found it to be reliable after that, same hole was always different.  Looks pretty though...give me my Snap-on gauge every time.


Well so far mine is hanging in there. It matches the snap-on. I found this. The explanation is better than mine would be.      http://support.alldata.com/article/tech-tip/running-compression-tests

Joe-JDC

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Re: My findings on a miss at idle
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2015, 10:28:45 PM »
I have to say I have never heard of this type of test, either, and I have a degree in Automotive Technology, and taught auto classes in Jr College for a couple of years.  Maybe it is something only recent, but does not sound like something I would recommend to troubleshoot a misfiring cylinder at higher rpms.  I tend to agree that there may be arcing between 7 and 8 plug wires.  Common problem with older wires or cheaper wires.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

gordonr390

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Re: My findings on a miss at idle
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2015, 06:05:46 AM »
I have to say I have never heard of this type of test, either, and I have a degree in Automotive Technology, and taught auto classes in Jr College for a couple of years.  Maybe it is something only recent, but does not sound like something I would recommend to troubleshoot a misfiring cylinder at higher rpms.  I tend to agree that there may be arcing between 7 and 8 plug wires.  Common problem with older wires or cheaper wires.  Joe-JDC


   I came up with this test 10-15 years ago for an odd problem I had. I've never seen it documented before until I searched for this thread so I'm not sure
 
  I cant comment about the quality or the age of the wires except the that they are Autolite as well as the cap and plugs.
   
  I will try the wire idea as it seems to be a go to issue. There is another simple way to discover arcing and thats to use a test light attached to ground and run the tip over the entire length of the suspected wire. If its bad spark will jump to the test light.

machoneman

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Re: My findings on a miss at idle
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2015, 08:54:34 AM »
I have to say I have never heard of this type of test, either, and I have a degree in Automotive Technology, and taught auto classes in Jr College for a couple of years.  Maybe it is something only recent, but does not sound like something I would recommend to troubleshoot a misfiring cylinder at higher rpms.  I tend to agree that there may be arcing between 7 and 8 plug wires.  Common problem with older wires or cheaper wires.  Joe-JDC
\

Although I haven't run such a test now in years, it is an uncommon but still valuable diagnostic tool. Even today (see link) in most cases techs don't use it since it takes time and more often, a non-running compression test and/or leak-down test often show the causes anyway. Also, even today's test parameters for modern EFI engines show this test as one diagnostic tool.

http://support.alldata.com/article/tech-tip/running-compression-tests

We used it on occasion in the 70's as we ended up buying over time a small fleet of '63-'64 389 equipped full-sized Pontiacs as tow cars for our race cars. Great towers but getting them cheap meant buying 100,000 mile cars that sometimes needed work. The running test btw was a poor man's leak-down test as we didn't have a leak-down tester! Again, rarely is this test necessary but.......

« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 09:47:28 AM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

gordonr390

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Re: My findings on a miss at idle
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2016, 02:57:59 PM »
If it doesn't make sense then it probably isn't right to begin with. I got around to retesting my engine miss issue again today at home and away from the shop. And discovered why my leak down was so perfect.




I had mixed my compression tool accessories with my my leak down tester. So now the test shows number 7 intake is leaking bad and 5 has ring\wall issues. Oh the joy of buying someone else's problems. Thanks for all the input

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: My findings on a miss at idle
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2016, 03:21:33 PM »
Learn something new every other day.....
We do firing tests on large diesels, but that involves ignition and resulting explosion.  Of course on these engines you either have a test port or some other way to tap into the cylinder pressure.