Headers and cam selection advice

[Ash]

Hi guys.

My project 69 Mustang has been very very slow. In fact all I have done over the last few years is collect parts. But the time has come to get stuck into it and I'm not sure on a couple of things so some advice from those in the know would help a great deal.

The car is an R-code that is far from concours and will not be going down that route. I didn't buy the car with many of the original parts, pretty much nothing actually except for a virgin bore 428CJ service block. Concours isn't my thing so that isn't a consideration when I have made decisions on parts.

The parts I have accumulated so far are:

Scat 4.25 crank
Scat H-beam rods
Edelbrock 60069 heads
Blue Thunder 427MR intake (thanks Jay, love the book!)
Fast EZ-EFI 2.0 fuel/ignition system along with in-tank fuel pump
SRP pistons which from memory will bring it under the 10:1 comp ratio
Harland Sharp roller rockers

Will also have a T56 trans married to the 3.91 9 inch diff. Wheels are 15 inch American Racing alloys.

I'm doing body work at the moment, replacing the floor pan and working in a T56 trans. While I'm at it, I'd like to mod the already hacked, big block shock towers to give some more room for headers. I had Hooker Super Comps in it when I go it and they were a nightmare to remove so I sold them. At this point I have been leaning towards getting a set of the finished headers flanges from Headers by Ed and building my own.

http://www.headersbyed.com/__ford.htm

But have recently been thinking about a set of off the shelf shorties instead. Just to save some time and some money but am not 100% sure. I'm not one to rev an engine hard when I drive it and it will never see a race track. All I really want is a torque monster to put a smile on my face when I go for a drive. Will there be much of a negative effect if I were to use a shorty over a long tube? I also will be using a hydraulic clutch so no more Z-bar to deal with.
I had originally planned to get a set of FPA's but after speaking to a local guy who did, I am in Australia, said the fitment into his 68 R-code with the FPA's he brought was not good. He told me he ended up having to cut and modify a couple of the pipes to get them to fit. Then have them ceramic coated again. This brings the cost up to around $2k Austrlian with all that done which to me is just too much money. So that deterred me from the FPA's

Next thing is I have no idea about cam selection. All I know is I will be using a set of hydraulic rollers. I've emailed Lunati for a suggestion but have not had a reply as yet. I understand that I will likely have to swap the valve springs in the new heads to suit as well.
I find it hard to understand which way to go and to gauge what others are aiming for when they select a cam. I want a driver car, one that will start at any time, hot or cold, which is why I went with the EFI. As I said, it wont see a race track and most likely never a dyno either. Which isn't the typical, hey I'm building a big ballsy stroker engine, which cam gets me the most, kind of request.

Cheers

[blykins]

So you're working with a 428 block a 4.25" stroke?  That's around the 460 cube mark.  The cam will depend on where you want the power to be.  I've got customers with 462-468 inch engines that want everything down low and I've used a cam with around 220-224° @ .050" to get there.  That puts the hp peak at around 4500-5000 depending on the heads.  If you want something that will pull closer to the 6000 mark, then you'll need to add duration to do that. 

You will find that there are not a lot of off-the-shelf hydraulic roller cams that work well with the FE.  I have my own grinds from Comp Cams and Bullet that I've found to be quiet and not be overly radical as far as lobe design.  The tendency to go with slightly aggressive lobe designs usually doesn't work out too well. 

As for valve springs, you will need to pull one off, measure the install height, and measure the spring pressure to see where you are, then they will need to be compared to what you need for whatever camshaft you go with. 

[jayb]

To really answer your question we need to know what horsepower level you are shooting for.  That will dictate cam, and also answer your question regarding the headers.  On the FPA's results seem to be mixed.  Mine went on with no trouble in my 69 Mach 1, but I've heard of others who have also had problems.  I've never heard anyone say they had to cut and reweld tubes to make them work, though; the other folks who have had fitment problems have had to dimple a tube here and there, or grind on the block a little for clearance.  Despite all that, most of those people say that the benefits of the FPAs, particularly the ground clearance you get with them as compared to other headers, is worth it.  So I would recommend the FPAs, despite your friend's experience.

My suggestion on your build would be to shoot for around 475-500 HP, which should give you a very streetable engine.  Cam in the 232-240 @ .050" range for duration, high .500s or low .600s lift.  I think you could probably use the shorty headers at that power level and get away with it, but I'd still recommend the FPAs...

[My427stang]

I'd approach it a little differently.

If you have a T56 with a .63 6th gear, you have a final drive of 2.45:1, I'd limit the cam to something in the middle 240s @ .050 (or slightly less) and at or under .600 lift.  That should work out pretty well with 10:1 compression and will run pretty strong with your EFI.

1st through 5th will work well too, although keep in mind if you have the 2.66 1st gear as opposed to the 2.97, you may want to go to a 4.11 out back.  Even then, the mid 240s cam will match well IMHO

[fastback 427]

I don't know if you will find a set of headers that won't need some massaging. We've tried many sets and all needed something. The super comps suck to install and starter r and r is impossible. I'm currently using a set of hedman 2 1/8 " race headers with the slip on collector. They hit almost everything in the car, but after some massaging, are fairly easy to install since the tubes go on one at a time. The d627 Doug's look real trick, but not much info on fitment or performance can be found.

[Ash]

Sorry guys, I hadn't set the notify option so didn't see your replies.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

So you're working with a 428 block a 4.25" stroke?  That's around the 460 cube mark.

Yes, that is correct. I was told 462 cubes.

To really answer your question we need to know what horsepower level you are shooting for. 

This I really don't know how to answer sorry, Jay. This is my first FE build and my first FE car. Also my first Mustang. So lots of firsts.

I didn't really have a figure I was aiming for. After reading lots, your book and Barry's, plus lots of others builds, I thought the numbers would be in the mid-500's with the parts I am using. But that is an uneducated guess.

Thanks for the feedback that you had with the FPA's. I was sold on them until I heard about the story I said.

I also got a reply back from Lunati this morning and this is what they said

The cam I recommend is part number 20330711 out of the Voodoo cams. This
cam is 221/229 at .050, .593/.611 on the lift, and it is cut on a 112 LSA
with a 106 intake centerline. You can order this as a cam and lifter kit
using part number 20330711LK. If you have any questions let me know.

Thanks

This is it here

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LUNATI-352-428-FORD-FE-272-280-593-611-VOODOO-ROLLER-CAM-CAMSHAFT-LIFTERS-/141465897570?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20f0064a62

My427stang, I was having trouble finding a reliable source for gear ratios but I think this is what I have:

1st - 2.66
2nd - 1.78
3rd - 1.30
4th - 1.00
5th - 0.80
6th - 0.63

Thanks for all your replies and info guys. There's a bit of info for me to read through and decipher so I will sit down later on at the end of the day and have another read through. Cheers!

[blykins]

You will need to figure out how much horsepower you're aiming for and where you want the power to be.  500 hp is do-able with your combo, but each person is different as to where and how they want that power.  Answer those questions and the cam specs will come to light.

A 221/229 @ .050" cam with out of the box Edelbrocks and 460 cubes will peak the hp fairly low.  Is that what you're after?  As the others said, you could probably use something all the way up to the low 240's on .050" duration and still have a docile engine.  With the 3.90 gears, I would lean that way myself, but again, it's up to you.

I would have to see the advertised durations on that Lunati camshaft to see if it would be a valid option.   Lots of hydraulic roller lobes for FE's are "universal lobes" and they don't always work well with the FE valvetrain.   Most cam designers and phone-answerers have never  built an FE before, so they are not familiar with what really works and what doesn't.

[My427stang]

That cam is 272/280 and 112 LSA, I think they went mild because you said "EFI"  That cam is on the edge of being fussy on fuel, although if your compression turns out lower, it sure would make a nice mellow streeter.

From experience with EFI and a tall OD gear, I'd personally push for a bit more cam than that even though it seems counter intuitive.  That cam has too much LSA IMHO for such a short advertised duration. The short advertised duration also puts it on the edge of DCR, assuming your numbers are correct for compression.  Not bad DCR, but on the edge and with a 2.48 or so final and a tall 1st gear it's at the top limit.  So why put it there only to reduce peak power?

I'd also reiterate that it's not really a HP issue where you have to pick a number, for me it's rarely one, you need to look at what you want to do in 1st, 5th and 6th  gear and where you want power to be, which Brent also mentioned.  Where you drive the car in terms of rpm is most important.

My HP goal is always "the max I can make at the RPM I want it to operate well in for the budget I have"

If you go too much cam, it won't be happy in overdrive until it's hauling ass  LOL  If you go not enough, it'll fussy on fuel and down on power

Assuming you want it as a street car by looking at the other parts you chose along with the gearing and tranny, I'd revise it to something no less than 236 at .050 but I'd sneak up to 240, 110 LSA, 106 ICL and then advertised in the mid 280s on the intake lobe, maybe a little more on the exhaust, but that's not as important as the intake

[blykins]

Just looked at the specs for that cam.  Advertised duration is 272/280.  I don't think you'd see a lot of rpm with that cam and your combo, so you may not see issues because of the lobe design, but I do think it would be a noisy lobe.  A lot of the more aggressive hydraulic roller lobes sound like a sewing machine.

[Ash]

I decided to go with a T56 over the top loader as I live in a small rural town where as soon as I leave, it's a 100kph speed limit, roughly cruising along at 60-70mph for the next 45mins. I wanted it to cruise nicely so I went with the 2 over drive gears and not have it wanting to sit at a high rpm the whole time.

Other than that it'll be around the streets, so short squirts through the first few gears. It wont ever see a race track and it wont get driven like it's at one either. You will have more chance seeing it at the shop or picking the kids up from school. Saying that, I don't drive like a grandma. My other cars are a 66 Mustang and a 76 F100. I just like my old Fords and drive them any chance I can.

To put a horse power figure on it as a target, I'd really just be pulling a figure out of the air. I understand that isn't helpful, sorry. I'm most likely going to just drive it off the bottom of the rpm range the majority of the time so that's where I'd like it to be the most happy.

[blykins]

I wish more of my customers would be that honest LOL

On the camshaft, I think you need to be somewhere around the 230 @ .050" range.  Advertised duration needs to be around the lower 280's.  Hydraulic rollers in an FE seem to be a little tricky, in the sense that if you get a fairly aggressive lobe, you lose control of the valve train easily and you get some noise.  I've dyno'd a lot of hydraulic roller FE's and I've found with normal combinations of valves/springs/retainers/lifters, the lazier lobes tend to make more horsepower and are much quieter. 

Bottom line is that I think you will need a custom camshaft, or at least an off the shelf stick that's been designed and used with the FE in mind. 

If it were my build or you were my customer, I would do something like this, based off of Comp's Thumpr lobes:

227/233 @ .050", 283/295 advertised, 110 LSA on a 104 ICL.  I have used that very cam on a 428 CJ build and with CJ heads performing similar to your out-of-the-box Edelbrocks, it was done a little above 5500 and would pull easily to 6000.  Keep in mind that you're working with about 30 cubes more than that 428, so the peak will be a bit lower on your engine, which seems to be where you want to be.  That particular engine made 425 hp and about 460 lb-ft of torque, but was using factory heads and factory intake manifold. 

Just my two pennies....

[Ash]

I wish more of my customers would be that honest LOL

Hahaha, may as well tell the truth.

You've all given me some great info. And I think I've learnt more about cams in this thread than I had ever before. And I like the comment on phone-answerers advice. I'll definitely take that on board.
Thanks everyone for taking the time to post!

[My427stang]

I wish more of my customers would be that honest LOL

Hahaha, may as well tell the truth.

You've all given me some great info. And I think I've learnt more about cams in this thread than I had ever before. And I like the comment on phone-answerers advice. I'll definitely take that on board.
Thanks everyone for taking the time to post!

Brent gave you a good choice, just be sure you actually measure all of the moving parts.  Deck clearances, chamber size, camshaft centerline, etc, each affect performance significantly.  Often compression ratio is lower than expected due to excess deck clearance and larger than expected chambers.  Checking, blueprinting and tweaking the plan as required makes all the difference

[Ash]

That I will do. I will be sure to take my take and get it right. After spending my complete budget on traveling from Aus to the US and back to buy it, to only have driven it off my trailer once it arrived in Aus and into my shed, I then discovered a dropped lifter and worn cam lobe. Along with many other issues. I don't wish to go through this again. It's been 4 years and nearly another 20k on top by the time it is done. The built engine in the car of my dreams, turned into a disaster.