firing order swap???

[fe66comet]

Here is my dilemma, on one hand I have the old firing order of 15426378 on the other I have the late firing order of 13726548. I have been on the phone today searching for someone who can grind me a cam for over 600 lift in a custom firing order and the biggest lobe is .500 that comp cams has a custom firing order for. My guess is the blank is for marine reverse rotation applications. My other thought was have the power train control module modified to accept the earlier firing order, haven't found someone to do that yet either but have only done a web search so far. Then the obvious  solution hit me but I never have tried it so I am not sure if is a workable solution? Why not move the wires around on the cap, both firing sequences begin with #1 and end in #8 so why would the PCM know the difference? This one seems easy but as I said I never tried it before. Thanks guys for the input.

[machoneman]

Most 4-7 swaps (Chevy F.O. sorry!) today are mostly for all-out Comp/Elim or Pro Stock engines (GM DRCE or derivatives) that run not only a relocated higher cam tunnel in short-deck Pro blocks but also heavily bored out cam bearing journals running large o.d. cam cores on roller bearings. Anti-twist is the game here with spring pressures well over 1,000 lbs. open. That said, Reher and Morrison swear a max gain of 8-10 hp in a well-sorted out 1,400 hp  500 CID NHRA Pro Stock engine running 10,200 in the lights.   

http://www.precisionenginetech.com/tech-explained/2009/06/03/special-firing-order-camshafts/

For an FE core, perhaps a heavily cut down (journals and lobes) Pro engine core would work but I wonder if the 4.90 bore spacing on Pro engines offers too much spread between the lifter bores.

[My427stang]

In terms of your fuel injection do not confuse ignition firing order with injector firing order

The ignition is simply whatever the cap wiring is set for and has to match the cam and engine.  The ECM does not care. 

However, injector timing uses a small notch in the TFI shutter wheel to generate a "Signature PiP" which happens at #1 TDC.  The ECM uses this for injector timing.  This is why TFI distributors get set to a fixed 10 BTDC and then ignition timing is adjusted through the computer.  The ECM needs this at low rpm to time the injectors.

You CAN, although it is hokey, rewire the injectors to match the engines firing order, but it's easier just to run a Quarterhorse or Tweecr and change it electronically.

Here is a screen capture of Binary Editor and how I manipulate those parameters



You havent said what you are using, but if it is an A9L based, or Massflow, get a Quarterhose, you'll need it for tuning anyway.  If it happens to be Chris's new ECM I haven't programmed one yet but I HOPE he took our feedback and made the new ECM user programmable.  The original Massflow was for a very basic customer base, bolt and go with no real tuning.  (BTW I grew up with the guy and his wife in a small town in mass. we even worked at the same junkyard as teenagers.  They are good people)  However, I didn't start making real power with these until I programmed them myself.

Additionally, for anything above 450 hp or so, you'll need a decent MAF.  I started with his 82mm LS based MAF but it just wouldn't breathe, so I went with a Ford slot style and made a housing above my TB.  Works much better and has an integrated IAT, much cleaner install and really allowed me to tweak upper rpm fueling, his 82mm MAF would either saturate at high rpm, or I'd have to build in "bleed programming" which made it less efficient down low.

[fe66comet]

I am just after the use of the PCM. I realize the gains are minimal for the HO firing order, I am after the ability to install the engine in a late model chassis and use modern components. I would be fine with staying with the standard firing order if I could swap out the wires to modify the order then I would be a happy camper. The only injection system that Ford offered in the early firing order was TBI and I would scrap the project before using that as it was inefficient, underpowered and got horrible gas mileage. As far as firing order would the PCM actually know which cylinder it was firing? I would think an analog system like the 90 Mustang would never know? Once triggered it just fires in sequence without any individual cylinder input. What would happen if that sequence were changed externally I am not sure but I do not want to assume that the PCM will know. Movement of injectors around with the ignition I would think accomplish the the change?

[fe66comet]

Looks like you have done this before, can you build a PCM and convert it to MAF. I was trying to get ahold of Dunne- Right but they did not answer back and I would rather go through you anyhow. You seem to know how to make it work and I honestly do not.

[My427stang]

I am just after the use of the PCM. I realize the gains are minimal for the HO firing order, I am after the ability to install the engine in a late model chassis and use modern components. I would be fine with staying with the standard firing order if I could swap out the wires to modify the order then I would be a happy camper. The only injection system that Ford offered in the early firing order was TBI and I would scrap the project before using that as it was inefficient, underpowered and got horrible gas mileage. As far as firing order would the PCM actually know which cylinder it was firing? I would think an analog system like the 90 Mustang would never know? Once triggered it just fires in sequence without any individual cylinder input. What would happen if that sequence were changed externally I am not sure but I do not want to assume that the PCM will know. Movement of injectors around with the ignition I would think accomplish the the change?

Again, the ECM never knows what cylinder its firing.  It just fires 8 times and doesn't care where the rotor is pointing.  A 90's Ford ECM only fires the coil, not an individual plug.

Buy a harness from Painless Wiring, buy a Quarterhorse, and build it on a laptop, its fun.   You want an A9L computer, easily bought anywhere, a Quarterhorse chip, and Binary Editor. 

Keep in mind though, as you swap MAFs, injectors, etc, you need to program for them, this isn't a bolt and go.  If you aren't prepared for this I'd go Speed Density and just get a FAST or even the Edelbrock kit

[fe66comet]

Nah too easy LOL, but seriously the logic behind the madness is I need emissions. I am using it in a 1996 body and should I ever move to a more densely populated area I want to be prepared. Besides how many big block powered late models do you see today? I have other plans for my Comet so I decided to find a home for my FE under the hood of my pickup truck. My plan is to make a total sleeper out of it. And no one is going to expect a big block in a plain Jane Ranger. I was told a big block would not fit or a 351 Windsor, just a 302. Well the intake will resemble a 302, everything below is pure Ford big iron with the Tbolt headers and all. The chassis is another project all together, I am just about done with the back half with a boxed 4.5 wide frame, giant cross members, four link, a 9" with Detroit locker , 3:70 sportsman gear set. I also have a Jaz fuel cell, 8an fuel lines running through 1.5 conduit inside the frame, a Holley 90 psi/ 200 gph fuel pump with a aeromotive 3 port regulator. Filtering is handled with a stainless screen 80 micron pre filter and 40 micron post. I went with an ABS cell to resist corrosion and I still have to fabricate a perforated steel box for it, I ordered that custom about a month ago so it should be here soon. Right now I am going to stay with the leaf springs until I can buy the coil over shocks and fabricate the four link forward mounts, I have the brackets already installed for the shocks on a custom boxed 4" cross member and the axle. Now I will move on to the trans and engine which is why my sudden interest to get the injection completed along with the heads and camshaft. The front end will need to redone also with a Mustang K member and tubular arms with rack and pinion. I already have a Lincoln steering colum with tilt and telescope for the steering project. But for now I need to just run it with what I have done till I get prepared better for the transplant.

[fe66comet]

The quarter horse seems like the shiznit, what else is needed to support it? I see a lap top and program is needed of course is there anything else to make it go? I would probably opt for the tuner class in Ohio, I am not by any means computer dumb but I am thinking to save a lot of headaches and possible engine damage it might be a good idea.

[My427stang]

The Quarterhorse comes with 2 programs, bought at the same time.  I can't remember if the programs are a package or just ordered at the same time, ask Moates or look on their website.

- Binary Editor - The screen shot you saw, required to hack into the EEC-IV through the QH
- EEC Analyzer - A second program that takes your Binary Editor logs and recommends changes

You need a PC, but other than that, it comes with the cabling and instructions to modify the computer, really just cutting an access door in the cover of the A9L.

It's not tough to initially tune, firing order change, injector size change and enter the MAF you are running and the motor will generally run pretty well.  After that, it's up to you to make it even better with hundreds of options.  FWIW, Massflo only changes those couple of things I listed, however programming further makes an incredible difference

A third thing to buy if you want to get serious is a wide band O2 sensor and then pay for the option to add it to Binary Editor.  The EEC-IV is narrow band, and that is fine when its dialed in, but as you tune it, the programs can take a wide band input and make it better.  When you add an Innovate WB, it's only temporary for tuning though, you cannot convert the EEC-IV to a WB O2 input for normal operations

Here is my scenario, get the program very close based on engine specs and some basic drivability.  Then you go out and log 20-30 minutes of WOT, part throttle, idling around, you name it.  You start up EEC Analyzer, read the log, it gives you a recommendation and you apply it.  If you don't like it, you swap back to your original program.  You could do that 100 times a day if you wanted.  It's pretty slick.

I am pretty comfortable tuning now, so I do less of the EEC Analyzer, but, I'll still run it after a tune on my own stuff to make sure I didn't create an oddball lean spot, goofy timing effects or something like that

[fe66comet]

Sounds like a strait forward operation and something I could handle. From the sound of it you could adapt to nearly any scenario without modifying the PCM. I see that the aftermarket PCM boxes come already set up for MAF, will this be an issue? I tried to find a PCM locally and as a reman and after the core charge the new aftermarket from Dunne Right was much less expensive.

[My427stang]

The Quarterhorse is only for Ford A9L factory 89-93 5.0 computers, not for any other, but yes, it does NOT modify the PCM, it plugs into motherboard from the back side and only needs to have the housing notched to give you access to it

[fe66comet]

They are on back order currently but I am no where near ready anyhow. Being that it uses the standard, non California PCM that makes things easier for sure.