Sludge in oil pan?

[fairlaniac]

So I'm tearing apart my 427 to fix the persistent rear main seal leak. As previously documented I also was tracking down a coolant leak into the oil. To clarify an earlier post, I probably have about 75 miles on the most recent oil change from September '22. At that time I replaced a push rod I discovered slightly out of round. There was no evidence of coolant then to alarm me. So I'm thinking the coolant leak happened since September. It may have been starting prior, just not evident? Who knows? So when I took the intake off I found a breach in the intake gasket at #8 cylinder. The TA-31 around the coolant port seemed to have separated from the head and it looks like coolant leaked into the cylinder a bit and moreso in the lifter valley. So I think I have that diagnosed. I wonder if I had an oil spot there and the TA-31 didn't adhere?

I then flipped the engine to pull the pan and after a few minutes black sludge started to drip out. I pulled the pan and you can see the sludge in the attachments. When I drained the oil/coolant from the crankcase last week it was fairly clear as it was fresh oil. So I'm thinking the sludge was built up already? I just did a quick check with clay the pickup to pan distance. It's at 1/2", probably too much. I was wondering why the sludge wasn't picked up? Anyhow, any idea what may have caused the sludge build up? I have less than 500 miles in three years and 5 oil changes since. Most of them oil changes are from chasing the oil leaks from the back of the intake and other wishful attempts to diagnose the rear seal leak.

Pictures:

http://www.fairlanet.com/images/pan1.jpg
http://www.fairlanet.com/images/pan2.jpg



Thanks,

[1968galaxie]

Did you use any oil additives along with the oil?

[machoneman]

Have seen it before. It could be all the heavy, grease like lubes used on the cam/lifters/rockers, etc. Oil will wash away most of these lubricants pretty quickly unless the engine doesn't get up to temp and stays hot for awhile.

[SSdynosaur]

Doug, is your engine using a flat tappet cam? The reason I ask is I always see the black sediment as in your pics whenever I remove a pan from an engine where an appropriate amount of "cam lube" was applied during the installation of the cam and lifters. Some of the engine lubes and anti-seize products will also contribute to the black sediment. Another source could be the lubricant package of the type/weight of motor oil you are using. The sediment product is a common find in a drag engine using racing oil lube packages and engine assembly products, especially since engines of that application seldom see running temps exceeding 180*F which minimizes "cook-off" of some of the sediment products. Did you find coolant in the pan when you drained the oil? This post was only submitted to expand on the previous help offered.

[Rory428]

Agree with the other guys, to me it looks like the same residue that 428 with a flat tappet had when I pulled the oil pan late last year. Not really a "sludge", but a fine black film of additive. No idea if that may be residual Molybdenum Disulfide from the cam and lifter assembly paste that I use, or possibly additive "fallout" of a high ZDDP oil, like the Brad Penn/Penngrade 1 that I use. What oil and assembly lube did you use? My 428 has a flat tappet solid lifter cam, and has about 5000 miles over the past 3 years, and this was the first time I had the oil pan off since putting it together about 6 or 7 years ago, so in my case, at least, it could just be the Moly lube from the cam and lifters that stuck around during the 3 oil changes that I have done.

[Stangman]

On my flat tappet cam and Brad penn oil I also had the same black film and also
Had a little condensation or water if you like. The motor hadn’t been started in almost a month
And the oil itself was clean. I chalked it up to the oil sitting for a month and the condensation I assumed it would have burned off after a run. As far as the cam lube on breakin that was a few year before I dropped the pan so I don’t think it has anything to do with it. Curious as to what oil you use Doug. Being this was his 4th or 5th oil change I don’t think that would still be in the motor. I did do a search and the Brad Penn oil does build up condensation when sitting. As far as th black it seams like it would maybe be the oil separating?.

[fairlaniac]

I didn't think of the assembly lube build up. I did use a liberal amount upon assembly of Lucas brand assembly lube. It's consistency sort of matches it.

As for motor oil, I use Driven, formerly Gibbs Oil. A friend is a distributor so I support his business. I use the standard, not synthetic.

Mine is a Bullet Solid Roller Cam using Lunati roller lifters.

There was coolant in my oil pan when I drained it. About 11 ounces extra.

When I pulled the intake it took some of the gasket with it but it did appear the area around the coolant passage by cylinder #8 had an issue. Because of the tear after pulling the intake I cannot say 100% I found my leak but that's what I'm going with right now. Here is a picture of the "flap" that appeared loose from the head.

http://www.fairlanet.com/images/pan3.jpg

The only "additive" used was the leak dye to diagnose my oil leak.

I'm thinking my pickup to pan floor is off too much and it may not have been able to pick it up and get caught in the filter so it just accumulated there? The Canton drain plug on the back is raised high enough where it looks like anything about 1/4" high will not drain out. I always drain hot and the front end tilted up to get the best drain possible.

Thanks,

[SSdynosaur]

Additional thoughts following your post. The ultimate additive packages present in some of the assembly lubes, although petroleum based, appear to not respond as completely miscible with engine lube oil in a running engine.

Driven Oil is a quality product, at least in my experience with the synthetic variety, but they seem to employ an extremely slippery additive package and experience says it should be avoided until the rings are seated with a break-in engine lube. Sorry, but I have zero experience with Driven Oil's conventional based engine lube oils.

Strictly a guess, but I would side with you on the recent nature of the introduction of coolant into the engine lube.

The picture of the #8 intake port area seems to me to appear as though both the gasket and the intake have shifted rearward to  misalign with the front vertical edge of the port. Perhaps that observation is a photo graphic artifact but the rear bolt hole in the intake gasket also seems out-of-round toward the front side. Are you using the factory alignment pin to locate the manifold or another method? Additionally, there appears that sealant has possibly closed the gap between the intake manifold and cylinder head around the bottom half of the oil return hole and, if that is the reality, delaying return oil from the head could be problematic. Some manifolds have abundant room in that assembled area but others are quite mechanically restricted.

Adjusting the oil pickup-to-pan floor clearance; should be finalized with the pan gasket in place and set somewhere between .290 to .350 range, ideally. The procedure you are using to drain/change your engine oil seems ideal. Good luck.