Author Topic: Installing an FE main stud girdle  (Read 6257 times)

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jayb

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Re: Installing an FE main stud girdle
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2021, 08:20:35 AM »
My understanding is that the girdle prevents the cap from twisting under load.  Enough of that twisting will crack the block between the mains and the cam journals of #2 and #4, right along the oil passage between the two.  You don't see the main webs break, you just get that crack.  I don't think an aluminum cap would help in that case. 

I have to say though that I'm really not sure if that is the failure mechanism.  However, the girdle does seem to strengthen the block, at least according to several of my customers who have used them.  Jeff, girdles are also available for big block Mopars, are they not commonly used?
Jay Brown
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- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Dumpling

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Re: Installing an FE main stud girdle
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2021, 10:17:00 AM »
Would there be a reason to install a girdle on a cross-bolted block?
Is one support mechanism better?

blykins

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Re: Installing an FE main stud girdle
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2021, 12:44:12 PM »
Would there be a reason to install a girdle on a cross-bolted block?
Is one support mechanism better?

In my mind the cross-bolted block is stronger.  The cap is preloaded in two directions. 

All of your aftermarket blocks have cross-bolted mains.  Non-skirted aftermarket blocks use 4-bolt/splayed caps.  You will never see an aftermarket block designed with a girdle.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 12:48:05 PM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
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67xr7cat

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Re: Installing an FE main stud girdle
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2021, 09:18:07 PM »
Would there be a reason to install a girdle on a cross-bolted block?
Is one support mechanism better?

Think normally you either do the girdle or the cross bolted main caps. I'd think strength wise the order would be stock, then girdle, then block with cross bolted billet caps, then make the jump to an aftermarket block.   

I had an old article from 1967 about a top fuel racer who was running the 427 SOHC on nitromethane and was using the factory 427 cross bolted block and a home made girdle too to keep the crank off  the pavement. Said he had a lot of failed blocks.  Man, wish I could find that article again or remember the guys name!

Gaugster

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Re: Installing an FE main stud girdle
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2021, 09:30:03 PM »
Would there be a reason to install a girdle on a cross-bolted block?
Is one support mechanism better?

Think normally you either do the girdle or the cross bolted main caps. I'd think strength wise the order would be stock, then girdle, then block with cross bolted billet caps, then make the jump to an aftermarket block.   

I had an old article from 1967 about a top fuel racer who was running the 427 SOHC on nitromethane and was using the factory 427 cross bolted block and a home made girdle too to keep the crank off  the pavement. Said he had a lot of failed blocks.  Man, wish I could find that article again or remember the guys name!
Mickey Thompson?  ;D
John - '68 Cougar XR7 390 FE (X-Code) 6R80 AUTO

67xr7cat

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Re: Installing an FE main stud girdle
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2021, 10:34:45 PM »
Was Ed Pink

Found the article:

http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/members/AardvarkPublisherAttachments/9990392503331/1969-05_CC_SOHC_Magical_Mystery_Tour_1-10.pdf

Was actually post up on this forum in this thread:

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=4970.0

Is interesting what they did to those Nitro Cammer engines.  The girdle install is a bit different too! Guess is appropriate to this thread!

67xr7cat

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Re: Installing an FE main stud girdle
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2021, 10:45:00 PM »
My understanding is that the girdle prevents the cap from twisting under load.  Enough of that twisting will crack the block between the mains and the cam journals of #2 and #4, right along the oil passage between the two.  You don't see the main webs break, you just get that crack.  I don't think an aluminum cap would help in that case. 

I have to say though that I'm really not sure if that is the failure mechanism.  However, the girdle does seem to strengthen the block, at least according to several of my customers who have used them.  Jeff, girdles are also available for big block Mopars, are they not commonly used?

Is it twisting or caps deflecting inwards are the crank tries to be forced out the bottom?  I've always thought was cap defection pushing the bolts sideways.  The oil hole makes for the ideal weak spot plus lack of support with that big cam journal hole.  Guess if you milled the caps flat and put a 1" piece of bar stock across them be an interesting experiment to see if it stops the block from cracking at the oil holes. Without a doubt the girdle or crossed bolted mains help stabilize the caps too.

Joey120373

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Re: Installing an FE main stud girdle
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2021, 05:24:57 PM »
So here’s a thought that’s been rolling around in my head for ages.
The factory caps had individual spacers that were hand picked for the positions they fit.

The aftermarket caps have built in spacers, requiring precise machining to the block to get the right fit.

Would a cap that was built with an adjustable, threaded spacer , be an easier solution? Basically, for instance,  the cap would have a protrusion either side with a large diameter female thread, the “spacer”
Would essentially be a hollow bolt that could be screwed out to interface with the block. Then the actual cross bolt would thread into the cap through the center of all that. That way, from a machining standpoint, the only critical thing would be ensuring that the pan rails were machined square to the cap centerline so that they didn’t impart and twist.

I realize that there would be slip or play in the outer threaded portion, however, once it’s all torqued down that might not be a problem. This would also allow a certain ammout of pre loading to the block, like the old 1.5l turbo Indy car motors used. Since it’s the fore and aft movement of the cap that is what we want to control (correct?) would such an arrangement work for that?

Kinda just thinking out loud, but like I said it’s a thought I’ve had for years, logic tells me that if that was a viable solution, someone would have done it already…

Joe

blykins

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Re: Installing an FE main stud girdle
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2021, 05:59:55 PM »
It’s a valid design.  Ford 4.6L blocks are designed like that.  They have jack bolts between the cap and block.  You screw them out until they touch, then torque them to spec, which preloads the system. 
Brent Lykins
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My427stang

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Re: Installing an FE main stud girdle
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2021, 07:07:32 PM »
My understanding is that the girdle prevents the cap from twisting under load.  Enough of that twisting will crack the block between the mains and the cam journals of #2 and #4, right along the oil passage between the two.  You don't see the main webs break, you just get that crack.  I don't think an aluminum cap would help in that case. 

I have to say though that I'm really not sure if that is the failure mechanism.  However, the girdle does seem to strengthen the block, at least according to several of my customers who have used them.  Jeff, girdles are also available for big block Mopars, are they not commonly used?

I haven't wrapped my head around the cause either.  Certainly there is no twisting caused by the crank, or the oil film would be gone and the bearings wiped, but they can live long happy lives cracked at 2 and 4 at the bolt holes.  I do think the cross bolts fix it, but I also consider the harmonics as said before, or potentially some minor cap walk or maybe even  bolts not deep enough in the holes in a factory setup?



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Joey120373

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Re: Installing an FE main stud girdle
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2021, 09:39:06 PM »
Quote
  It’s a valid design.  Ford 4.6L blocks are designed like that.  They have jack bolts between the cap and block.  You screw them out until they touch, then torque them to spec, which preloads the system. 

Ok, I did not know that, but I got out of the mechanic-ing buisness when the modular motors were still fairly new.

so next question is, is there a viable way to modify factory caps to accomplish this? Would brazing or welding

A, not damage or weaken  the cap structurally or dimensionally   and
B, be strong enough?

Or would we still be looking at an aftermarket cap?

joe

TomP

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Re: Installing an FE main stud girdle
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2021, 11:13:43 PM »
Was Ed Pink

Found the article:

http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/members/AardvarkPublisherAttachments/9990392503331/1969-05_CC_SOHC_Magical_Mystery_Tour_1-10.pdf

.006" main bearing clearance and .005" on the rods, with .060 to .070" rod side clearance! Huge .002" wrist pin clearance, and .012" piston to wall! No wonder they use 60W oil!

I've seen a different girdle more than an inch thick and just on the three center caps so the pan rail has to be welded and stepped up to fit it. Glen May's turbo 390 pickup has that. One day I need to go over there and get pictures of that beast.

67xr7cat

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Re: Installing an FE main stud girdle
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2021, 12:16:19 AM »
Quote
  It’s a valid design.  Ford 4.6L blocks are designed like that.  They have jack bolts between the cap and block.  You screw them out until they touch, then torque them to spec, which preloads the system. 

Ok, I did not know that, but I got out of the mechanic-ing buisness when the modular motors were still fairly new.

so next question is, is there a viable way to modify factory caps to accomplish this? Would brazing or welding

A, not damage or weaken  the cap structurally or dimensionally   and
B, be strong enough?

Or would we still be looking at an aftermarket cap?

joe

To add to this Ford used Jackscrews on the Romeo built Mods and pins on the Windsor mods.  I'd say the pins would be easier to make work as would just install the caps and drill a hole between the block and cap.  Considering Ford used the cross bolt setup on all the hi po Mods and the Coyote I'd think it is the better design.  If you narrowed the cap and threaded it to accept the jack screws that would be about all that is needed.  In practice I don't think machining the block to fit the caps is all that big a deal.  Seems like drilling and counter boring the cross bolt holes is more the issue, but I can see making a jig to address that .

frnkeore

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Re: Installing an FE main stud girdle
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2021, 01:46:06 PM »
Some more thoughts about main supports:

As 67xr alluded to, I believe that detonation forces tend to deform the caps, downward, pulling the register area away from the block. Whether or not, that could cause twisting, I can't say but, it could certainly allow it.

Most 4 bolt main applications, have gotten away from vertical outside bolts and use slayed bolt angles. The arrangement increases register contact force, the side bolts on the 427 do the same thing and also add bulkhead strength.

The girdle should add bulkhead strength, and therefore increase torsional stiffness but, it doesn't do anything to increase contact pressure or hold the registers in place.

That's why I proposed hollow dowels at both the top and bottom of the caps, when using a girdle. While they can't increase the contact pressure like side or splayed bolts can, they can increase resistance to cap deformation and movement.
Frank

Gaugster

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Re: Installing an FE main stud girdle
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2021, 09:24:59 AM »
I was inquiring about a hollow dowels also. The 390 main setup sort of lends itself to such a potential modification. Hard to know if it would be an overall benefit given that a few threads might need to be removed from the register based on the dowel depth. ARP studs along with the girdle will improve strength and should enough for my build. That is unless the cross ram ends up being an "over achiever".  ;D
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 09:26:56 AM by Gaugster »
John - '68 Cougar XR7 390 FE (X-Code) 6R80 AUTO