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Messages - plovett

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16
FE Technical Forum / Re: 600 hp solid roller street cam?
« on: November 15, 2020, 12:45:50 PM »
Thanks Mr T! 

I will look into gas "supplements".  I do live near an airport.

pl

Mr T. says, "I pity the fool with low octane!"

17
FE Technical Forum / Flow numbers: Cylinder head vs Intake manifold?
« on: November 15, 2020, 12:31:58 PM »
When is your intake manifold too much for your combination and more specifically, the heads?

Do you look at cross sectional area?  Do you look at flow?  Vehicle combination?  All of it?

I am going to mention flow first.  We know that both cylinder heads and intake manifolds are flowed on a flow bench.   In neither case do the conditions on the flow bench, e.g. a steady 28" of vacuum, replicate what happens in a running engine.  But using the flow data is obviously very useful.  There are various rule of thumb calculations relating cfm and potential horsespower.   You can look at flow vs . cross sectional area and/or volume.  You can look at discharge coefficient which is a ratio of actual flow vs. an ideal theoretical flow.  In engines I think the ideal theoretical flow is based on the valve size area.  The ideal at 28" depression is supposed to 146 cfm per square inch of valve area minus the stem area. Anyway, flow numbers are very useful from a flow bench even though they don't mimic a running engine.  You could say the dyno is the ultimate flow bench.

When an intake manifold is flowed on a bench I believe 7 of the ports are plugged up and a fixture is used to pull air through the remaining port in the direction of the cylinder head.  This gets measurable and repeatable numbers, but it certainly doesn't replicate the chaotic environment in an intake manifold in a running engine.

Improvements in flow on a bench have fairly well understood effects in a running engine, so the bench is a great tool.  It is not always the case that more flow equals more power.  There are other factors like port speed, port volume, average cross sectional area, minimum cross sectional area, port shape, and on and on and on.

So,  back to cylinder heads and intake manifolds.   You can get a flow number for each, but how do you decide if they are compatible? 

I've read a rule of thumb that the intake by itself should flow about 25% more than the head by itself.  What about port size?  Does it matter?

What about flowing the intake and head together?  What does that tell you?  Do you look for the flow to diminish as little as possible after the intake is bolted on to the head?

I have a specifc question.   I have some ported Edelbrock heads.  They flow 302 cfm with 2.09" valves.   I plan on getting bigger valves put in, 2.19" or 2.20" and maybe open up the throats to match.  I expect the flow to pick up some.  I might get 315-320 cfm, I dunno.  The ports themselves are roughly a slighty larger medium riser size/ I can't measure them right now because they are at the machine shop. 

I have two intake manifolds.  Both are ported. One is a BT 1x4 dual plane.  It's average flow is 401 cfm per runner.  It also has slightly large medium riser size ports.   The other intake is a Dove Tunnel Wedge. 2x4 single plane.  It's average flow is 474 cfm per runner.  The thing is, the ports, while still roughly medium riser size, are actually smaller than the ports in either my dual plane intake or my cylinder head.

So applying the 25% rule, the dual plane intake would seem like the easy choice.  If flows enough to feed my heads given that measure, plus the added benefit of long separated runners.

On the other hand the single plane intake actually has smaller runners, but flows a butt-ton more.  Is all that extra flow just "wasted"?

I don't know the current manifold volumes.  Per Jay's book an unmolested BT1x4 in the medium riser version is 4950cc.  An unmolested Dove is 4125cc.    I don't think my intake's volumes have changed too much.

I understand there are vehicular constraints, too.  You might put the dual plane in a 4000 car with higher gearing even though it made less power.  Or you might put the single plane in your Cobra kit car even though power below 4000 was much lower.  I get that.  I mostly want to avoid getting into the particulars of a vehicle and concentrate on the engine, though.

Certainly the cam and intended power range of the engine are key.  Would that be the deciding factor?   Or is "enough" intake flow simply enough, regardless?

Just looking at an intake manifold and cylinder heads,  How do you pick the intake?   

Cylinder heads:        320 cfm     MR port (larger)
Dual plane intake:    401 cfm     MR port (larger)
Single plane intake:  474 cfm     MR port (smaller)

thanks,

paulie





18
FE Technical Forum / Re: 600 hp solid roller street cam?
« on: November 15, 2020, 05:49:52 AM »
I ran a Comp 308R on the street for a while before I built my blown motor. My Mustang ran high 10's with it and had no troubles driving in traffic or highway. I was running a 454 incher with ported Edelbrock heads.
I didn't run super high spring pressure, 200 seat and a little over 500 open. It pulled to 6500 fine.
The K-Motion 1100 spring works well with the 308R. I ran the regular Comp non-oiling roller lifter. The Comp roller lifters now have pin oiling and are a lot cheaper than the Crower hippo lifters...but I'm sure the Crower lifter is an outstanding piece.

My advise if you're going to run a solid roller on the street. Keep an eye on the springs. When they "go away" things bust. New springs every winter, new lifters every third year.

BTW, the 308R is .675 gross lift, 260@.050 duration on 110 lobe separation. A very old school mild ramp roller that's easy on parts.

Do you remember the compression ratio you ran with that combo, Tommy?

thanks,

pl

I was running the old TRW L2298 domed pistons, Le Mans rods, and a 1UB crank. Pretty old school, I think compression was about 12:1. That motor is still on a stand in my garage.
BTW, I coated the tops of the pistons here at home with the Tec-Line do-it-yourself stuff. The slugs still look good on top and none of the coating flaked off. I'm impressed with this product.

Tommy, do you remember what you were using for fuel with that engine?   I won't go to 12:1, but I might try 11:1 on high octane pump gas.  I can get 93 octane here, but 91 is much more common.

WILCO on the solid roller spring inspection and replacement.  I think with bushed, pressure fed lifters and a fairly mild cam profile, it will last pretty well.   I will keep an eye on it, though.  Springs are cheap and easy compared to other parts.

thanks,

pl

19
FE Technical Forum / Re: Weiand intake as a fuel injected intake
« on: November 14, 2020, 01:05:48 PM »
I had one of those intakes on a 390 once.   It wasn't good.  It was really bad, in my opinion.

I don't think adding sequential fuel injection would help much.  Maybe it could improve fuel distribution and power some, but it still won't be a good intake.  I'd look for a Performer intake or something like that.   Or keep what you have.

pl

20
FE Technical Forum / Re: 600 hp solid roller street cam?
« on: November 14, 2020, 06:59:17 AM »
I ran a Comp 308R on the street for a while before I built my blown motor. My Mustang ran high 10's with it and had no troubles driving in traffic or highway. I was running a 454 incher with ported Edelbrock heads.
I didn't run super high spring pressure, 200 seat and a little over 500 open. It pulled to 6500 fine.
The K-Motion 1100 spring works well with the 308R. I ran the regular Comp non-oiling roller lifter. The Comp roller lifters now have pin oiling and are a lot cheaper than the Crower hippo lifters...but I'm sure the Crower lifter is an outstanding piece.

My advise if you're going to run a solid roller on the street. Keep an eye on the springs. When they "go away" things bust. New springs every winter, new lifters every third year.

BTW, the 308R is .675 gross lift, 260@.050 duration on 110 lobe separation. A very old school mild ramp roller that's easy on parts.

Do you remember the compression ratio you ran with that combo, Tommy?

thanks,

pl

21
FE Technical Forum / Re: 600 hp solid roller street cam?
« on: November 14, 2020, 06:39:56 AM »
Maybe consider Blairs baby solid roller. My 416ci motor made 600hp with it. With the rocker I was using it only had .525 intake lift and .500 exhaust lift. duration is something like 265/270 @.050. My open spring pressure is 550lbs. It is a tight lash cam and would be streetable in a larger ci motor. Jim

Was that for a specific class or something?  No way would I run that low of a lift unless I had to.  Sounds like it made some power, though.  Interesting.

thanks,

pl

22
FE Technical Forum / Re: 600 hp solid roller street cam?
« on: November 14, 2020, 06:31:42 AM »
plovett,

 It actually made 605hp588tq.  600hp @ 6400 rpms and 605@6900 rpms  Peak tq @4700 rpms.

If this won't work give Brent a call and he can spec you something out.

I have another SR cam but it's a tad more radical  ;D
garyv

That sounds like an interesting cam.  I think it is a little big for my combination.  Plus, I am guessing Brent spec'd it specifically for the Tunnel Port heads.  I think they flow great, but taper off at higher lifts?   Super cool heads, but different flow characteristics than a typical "medium riser" type FE head. 

thanks,

pl

23
FE Technical Forum / Re: 600 hp solid roller street cam?
« on: November 14, 2020, 06:28:03 AM »
I'm using a Custom Comp 254/260 695 lift 110 LSA solid roller in my street 465.  Barry spec'd it for me a while back when he built the short block.  11:1 CR flat tops, Blairs street pro-ports.  It's a little rowdy, but pulls strong up close to 7K, idles around 1k.

That sounds good.  How did you decide on a 110 LSA?  Does it need idle quality?  Just wondering.  What do you think you are making hp wise?  Run okay on high octane pump gas?

thanks,

pl

Barry did the details of the cam.  Runs on pump 91 all day, went 11.41 with full exhaust and street tires.  Pulled 15mpg on a road trip (with the benefit of a TKO O/D)

https://youtu.be/DpB73U7_kzg

That cam is a Comp XR292R.

Thanks David and Brent.  Do you know how much spring pressure you are using with that one, David? 

I don't think I will ever get 15 mpg with my C6.  :)

pl

24
FE Technical Forum / Re: 600 hp solid roller street cam?
« on: November 13, 2020, 05:04:16 PM »
I ran a Comp 308R on the street for a while before I built my blown motor. My Mustang ran high 10's with it and had no troubles driving in traffic or highway. I was running a 454 incher with ported Edelbrock heads.
I didn't run super high spring pressure, 200 seat and a little over 500 open. It pulled to 6500 fine.
The K-Motion 1100 spring works well with the 308R. I ran the regular Comp non-oiling roller lifter. The Comp roller lifters now have pin oiling and are a lot cheaper than the Crower hippo lifters...but I'm sure the Crower lifter is an outstanding piece.

My advise if you're going to run a solid roller on the street. Keep an eye on the springs. When they "go away" things bust. New springs every winter, new lifters every third year.

BTW, the 308R is .675 gross lift, 260@.050 duration on 110 lobe separation. A very old school mild ramp roller that's easy on parts.

Thanks Tommy!

I have Morel bushed lifters, but I still don't want a lot of spring pressure.  I am thinking of using spring pressures similar to what you mentioned.  I know it won't be a no maintenance beast, but a relatively low maintenance beast would be nice.   I expect to give up 20-30+ hp compared to a more modern aggressive lobe.  I'd still like to breach 600 hp.  I figure a less aggressive lobe will hurt more in the low-mid range rpm, but also some at high rpm.  I am not sure about that, but that is what I think.

Thanks,

pl

25
FE Technical Forum / Re: 600 hp solid roller street cam?
« on: November 13, 2020, 04:38:00 PM »
Give him a call. He's VERY easy to talk to, and when I called him, recently, about doing a EMC port job, he took a long time talking to me and wasn't in any hurry to end the conversion until, someone came in he needed to talk to.

It seems like his EMC cam was pretty mild, I thought for what he got out of it. I think it was a HRC with solid lifters?

What is "mild"?  It doesn't necessarily mean easy on the valvetrain.  It could mean that, or it could mean low duration.  It could mean anything.  I am not looking for a hydraulic roller anyway.  What is a good 600 hp pump gas street solid roller?

thanks,

pl

26
FE Technical Forum / Re: 600 hp solid roller street cam?
« on: November 13, 2020, 04:19:37 PM »
Don’t disrupt Blair right now. He’s helping me twist my Fairlane in half.  :)

WILCO on that.   :)

pl

27
FE Technical Forum / Re: 600 hp solid roller street cam?
« on: November 13, 2020, 04:18:25 PM »
Comp has one that’s 262 262 .670 .670. I have one on the shelf but never used it. Pretty sure Jay made 650hp with it in one of his 500” edelbrock headed engines. So I bet it would get you there.

I am not sure what to think about that one.  VERY gentle lobes, even though I said that is one of things I want.  I do want to take advantage of the roller lifter to gain some area under the curve.  That one may be too gentle.  I am not sure.  Then, so much duration @ 0.050".  I dunno.  Just thinking.

thanks,

pl

28
FE Technical Forum / Re: 600 hp solid roller street cam?
« on: November 13, 2020, 04:12:58 PM »
I would suggest calling Blair and getting the cam he used in the '19 EMC. With that, he got 600 hp from less than 400 ci and his heads flow is similar to yours.

I don't know the cam specs of that cam but, I don't think it was much more than .600 on the lift and still in the 240's @ .050 for the intake lobe.

Blair doesn't post on here much anymore, for some reason.  Plus, I think any EMC cam would be too aggressive for my street engine.

thanks,

pl

29
FE Technical Forum / Re: 600 hp solid roller street cam?
« on: November 13, 2020, 04:11:45 PM »
Plovett I have the first solid roller we used when Brent and I were doing a few Tunnel Port builds.  It was 465 cubes and made 600hp
with unported heads.  There is one dyno session on the cam and springs
It's a Bullet custom solid roller Duration @50 Intake 260 Exh 270, Gross lift Intake 616, Exh 660  ICL 104
I also have the springs we used and if I recall they were around 630-640 open pressure.
If it's something you could use send me a pm.
This needs a new home.

garyv

I dunno Gary,

That looks pretty dang big for my application.  Do you remember the rpm the peaks occurred at?

thanks,

pl

30
FE Technical Forum / Re: 600 hp solid roller street cam?
« on: November 13, 2020, 04:10:32 PM »
252193-08 Howards

That looks like it is in the ball park of what I am looking for.

Lift: .656 / .656, Duration @ .050: 249 / 255, Centerline: 104, Rough idle, Pro street/bracket, Good mid-range torque, 11.0:1+ compression & 3500+ stall converter.

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