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Messages - falcongeorge

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1
Good Deals! / Good Vibrations
« on: October 31, 2019, 08:27:52 PM »
I got an excellent deal from Good Vibrations Motorsports on some Enderle X nozzles and some other parts, he was $12 cheaper per nozzle than Alkydigger, that's $100 savings over 8 nozzles. And he is very courteous to deal with and shipped promptly too. He will get more business from me.

2
FE Technical Forum / Re: Boring 390's
« on: September 22, 2019, 02:22:56 PM »
I remember what our local, quite sharp dealership parts guy told us in the mid-70's, that if you bought a 428 service block then, you would get a bored out 391 block, as they were using one service casting based on the 428, but only (normally) bored to 4.05- which would of course be a cost savings over casting different blocks for service use when not necessary. Actually makes perfect fiscal sense, and would explain some 360s and 390s with "thick" walls
bingo, dead on the money. Every single one I have seen so far is a mid seventies block. My guess is, theres a lot more out there to be found, I would be willing to bet there were probably at least 500 or so cast its a simple question of economy of scale. Ford didn't do 5 or 6 blocks at a time for bread and butter stuff, they did hundreds at a time. By casting them all on 428 cores, they didn't need to cast, and warehouse two runs of blocks, one for 360/390s, and one for 428s, they could cover both replacements with the same block, and machine them to the bore size they needed.
Of course, when you think about how many MILLIONS of 390 blocks were cast over the years, they are going to constitute probably less than 1% of the total number of 390s out there, (which is right in line with Barrys quoted numbers) and probably quite a few thick (and thin) blocks are Toyota corollas by now, so you are going to have to look at a HELL of a lot of 390s to find one. If you are looking for one, once you realize they are all late blocks with the vertical ribs, you can eliminate a lot of them without even popping a freeze plug. Theres still a damn site more thick 390 service blocks out there than there are OEM 427 cammers, and if I went on an internet forum and said those "didn't exist" the same guys that are saying "all 390s are thinwall" would go spastic. ::) But blabbing about cammers is "cool", talking about thickwall 390s clearly is not.
FWIW, my block came to me indirectly via another one of those "old-school" Ford guys like Gene is talking about, he was pretty well known locally, there is  at least one member silently lurking this thread who knows exactly who I'm talking about, he also had two shotgun mustangs, one pretty much stock, the other with a raised port, dual dominator Pro-Stock motor in it, the second one was pretty notorious among local street racers in the early seventies. Lots of those guys knew about these blocks back in the seventies when they were new, hell I knew about them, and I didn't have any kind of inside track, I was a punk kid at that time.
Its a fair bet that a fair percentage of that 500 or so have been hoarded by the few guys that knew what they were, and there are probably a few out there like mine, that have been sitting in a dry basement for 20-30 years. A lot of those guys are older than me, (and I aint exactly young) and are probably closing in on the time when they are going to stop hoarding this stuff. But hell, they "don't exist" so you guys here don't need to worry about that. ;D

3
FE Technical Forum / Re: Boring 390's
« on: September 22, 2019, 12:22:08 PM »
there are a few 390 blocks around that will go +.080 and still be thick enough, but they are not common, and to go out and hunt one down is probably an exercise in masochism, if not futility.you will need to sonic test any potential candidates, and if they are pitted on the water jacket side, you can still be in trouble. Brent alluded to the primary reason to do this, unshrouding a 2.19 intake valve. Its always about the cylinder heads.
 I wouldn't even consider trying to take any OEM FE block to +.125.

My very first post. Looks like Barry, Brent and I are all saying pretty much the same thing. ::) As to the "All 390s are thinwall" keyboard commandos, well....

4
FE Technical Forum / Re: Boring 390's
« on: September 22, 2019, 12:08:39 PM »
I guess its not surprising a bunch of guys that have no idea how to find these blocks think that they don't exist.

No one is saying they don’t exist.

We are all saying it’s not prudent to bore the snot out of them.  Maybe jay will step back and put this thread out of its misery.
[/quote]
Brent, that's what YOU are saying, and I haven't said you are wrong, maybe that I don't 100% agree, but I understand and respect your position. Plovett and MANY others have said "All 390's are thinwall". Do I need to post the definition of "all"?

5
FE Technical Forum / Re: Boring 390's
« on: September 22, 2019, 12:04:05 PM »
I guess its not surprising a bunch of guys that have no idea how to find these blocks think that they don't exist.

I have only checked about 100 per year for the last decade or so.

I have found definitely under ten - maybe under five - that I considered truly safe as 4.130 candidates.
One of them had the "C" scratch in the bell and a distributor bushing.

I guess I am not looking hard enough...
Barry, the fact that you have found ANY, even if it were one, proves my point. They do exist, and those that are saying they don't are full of $#*^. And as I said in the other thread, mine does not have a distributor bushing.

6
FE Technical Forum / Re: Boring 390's
« on: September 22, 2019, 12:01:11 PM »
A drill bit test isn't going to prove much, the question is condition of cylinders and core shift.  The 2 bolt motor mount blocks seem a little more consistent, but after that, they are all over the map.  Last fall I turned down a 428 standard bore  irrigation motor for the hyd roller build in the dyno section because four on one back were "over and up" and I didn't trust the block at .030 and 500 hp. 

Of course if no-one checks, any block might work!
I guess its not surprising a bunch of guys that have no idea how to find these blocks think that they don't exist.

Falcongeorge you sound like a very experienced and knowledgeable individual but I wouldn't downllay the knowledge and experience of others on this forum. They are simply being honest and expressing their own knowledge and experiences, in hopes of saving someone alot of grief. Also preventing someone of thinking they have something that they really don't and throwing a ton of money at something that could end in failure.
You are correct that I am mocking, early on I was sharing usable info, now I have resorted to mockery rather than sharing info, in fact, I am deliberately withholding that info. Earlier on, I had posted a fair amount of solid, hard-core stuff on what the thick blocks are all about, when they were produced, and how to identify them. When it turned into the usual internet forum dogpile, I went back and carefully edited any usable information that would help guys find these blocks, as they aren't interested in that.
They don't have any of these blocks, and haven't seen any, because they don't have the required knowledge to identify them.
And the nature of the typical post-modernist mob is so hubristic, that if THEY dont know about something, then it doesn't exist. This is the predominant groupthink on internet forums. The line of reasoning (if you can call it that) goes like this. "I might not know much about the information being presented, but most of the people posting here are saying this information is wrong, if I join in, I can piggyback on this, and appear more knowledgeable than I actually am. Even if the people I am agreeing with are incorrect, the sheer weight of numbers lends credence, and I can safely ride on the coattails of that". I alluded to this on page three in post #43, but naturally, it had zero effect, and didn't cause anyone to pause and reflect for even a moment. So it really shouldn't be surprising that I am mocking them rather than sharing information. Sharing that information would be a wasted effort, due to their hubris.
So, especially in light of the fact that I have a late 390 block that is cast on 428 cores sitting less than 100' from me as I type this, it shouldn't be surprising that I choose to mock, rather than inform. Taking the low ground? Well yes, I am, but then I am a notorious iconoclast, so...
A quote from a famous American iconoclast, I think it applies rather well in the context of critiquing the post modernist groupthink that dominates internet forums
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect."
Mark Twain


Hubris (/ˈhjuːbrɪs/, from ancient Greek ὕβρις) describes a personality quality of extreme or foolish pride or dangerous overconfidence,[1] often in combination with (or synonymous with) arrogance.[2] In its ancient Greek context, it typically describes behavior that defies the norms of behavior or challenges the gods, and which in turn brings about the downfall, or nemesis, of the perpetrator of hubris. The adjectival form of the noun hubris is "hubristic".

Hubris is usually perceived as a characteristic of an individual rather than a group, although the group the offender belongs to may suffer collateral consequences from the wrongful act. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence, accomplishments or capabilities

FWIW, I am not at all angry, in fact, I am rather enjoying this, I hope that is coming across in my posts.
To show a little goodwill, I will expand on my flippant response to My427stangs hubris. The drill bit test is vitally important, it tells you what cores the block is cast on. This is a field test, it helps you to decide whether it is worthwhile to haul the dirty chunk of cast iron laying in front of you into the machine shop for a sonic test, or to leave it where it lays. This test is vital even if you intend to build a +030 390 out of said chunk of cast iron, as blocks that will accept a 1/4" or 3/8" bit aren't even suitable for that.
So there you go, just so this debacle isn't a total waste of bandwidth. Of course, the hubris of most members of any given internet dogpile will prevent them from even utilizing this little tidbit of information. Carry on...

7
FE Technical Forum / Re: Boring 390's
« on: September 22, 2019, 10:44:24 AM »
A drill bit test isn't going to prove much, the question is condition of cylinders and core shift.  The 2 bolt motor mount blocks seem a little more consistent, but after that, they are all over the map.  Last fall I turned down a 428 standard bore  irrigation motor for the hyd roller build in the dyno section because four on one back were "over and up" and I didn't trust the block at .030 and 500 hp. 

Of course if no-one checks, any block might work!
I guess its not surprising a bunch of guys that have no idea how to find these blocks think that they don't exist.

8
FE Technical Forum / Re: Boring 390's
« on: September 21, 2019, 11:37:50 PM »
This conversation has continued on off-forum and some snickering has ensued. Apparently another FE Power member within about 20 miles of the "Area 51 Garage" ::) ;D had one of these "nonexistent" blocks ,and he mentioned to me that theres a third one (all three are early-mid seventies service blocks),  within 5 miles of my place. :o Im gonna try to find out if I can get a look at it, and hopefully stick a drill bit between the cores. But don't worry, we'll keep the results to ourselves, I don't wanna cause anymore emotional trauma. ;D
Geez, three "non-existant" blocks in a 20 mile radius! Whoda thunk??!! Must be a disturbance in the gravitational field or something! ;D ;D Don't mind me, carry on with "all 390's are thinwall castings" internet groupthink, some of us are enjoying this... ;D

9
FE Technical Forum / Re: Boring 390's
« on: September 21, 2019, 03:53:33 PM »

  Grab a block, sonic test it, and found out whether or not *that* block is thin because every block is a craps shoot. 

I'll be the first one to say that thick blocks do exist, because I had a '63 390 block that went that far without issue.  However, I wasted 2 to get to that point, and in hind sight, I accomplished ABSOLUTELY NOTHING by taking the one block out to a 4.130" bore.  Going from a 4.08-4.09 bore to a 4.130 bore doesn't open up magical gateways to head flow!  It does nothing but endanger the block's strength by making the cylinders weaker and it opens the block up to really weak spots due to pitting on the back sides of the cylinders that you can't see. 

If you do have a block that could go 4.130" and have plenty of meat left over, think about how rigid the block would be if you didn't do more than a clean-up cut.
hahaha, Brent knows something the rest of you guys don't. He aint gonna say it right out, and that suits me just fine, I aint talking anymore either. Someone once said that "George does not suffer fools kindly". Guilty as charged.

10
FE Technical Forum / Re: Boring 390's
« on: September 21, 2019, 10:09:41 AM »
Certainly you aren't indicating Mr. Lovett is incorrect.
Yup.

11
FE Technical Forum / Re: Boring 390's
« on: September 20, 2019, 05:22:14 PM »

 but they are all "thin". 

[/quote]
Ignorance is bliss, who am I to ruin anyones happiness? ;)

12
FE Technical Forum / Re: Boring 390's
« on: September 20, 2019, 02:50:42 PM »
The Being '66 was the first year and 70 the last year of the 428 as far as vehicle installed most I looked at to replace my block with that split two cylinders are relatively thin at 4.130. I have sonic checks on four blocks I considered for purchase. The thickest wound up being a 105 D4 block. I have .140- .156 and this is at a 4.155 bore.  One of the lessons learned with the new block is how important it is to bore the block with a torque plate. Charles at Charles machine was showing me that the distortion is usually .005 or more.  Not one of the earlier FE specific book offerings mention this.  Very little about it until Barry's books.
I am going to fire the new engine this weekend.  Hopefully all goes well. It seemed strange to grind the tangs off of the Cleveland mains. I hope all is well there too. Perhaps the cam is the largest concern. Always nerve racking breaking in flat tappet cams.

                                                                                                           -Keith
Keith, I wish I was as fortunate as you when I went searching for a thick 390 block. The thickest I found was also a D4TE block. The machine shop sonic'd it and said it would be thicker than .100 everywhere after a 4.130 bore. Got it done and in the meantime got an Ebay sonic checker. Naturally, when I sonic'd it myself after the boring, I found a place .079 was the thinnest, and 3 other spots below .090. Filled it to the water pump holes and am going to run it. Wouldn't have started this project if I didn't already have the pistons and crank.
No more .080 over 390 blocks for me. I do believe the "thickies" are out there...but really hard to find.
Good luck on the cam break-in.
Very little mention on here of WHERE the thick or thin spots are, which is vitally important. .079 between the bores? Meh, who cares? .079 on the minor thrust side? I'd be pretty nervous. .079 on the major thrust side? Its scrap.
The other question I would be asking myself, is my ebay sonic tester as accurate as the one the machine shop used. I realize they pinged it before they bored, and you pinged it afterwards, but that's still a question worth asking. Is it possible to get them to re-test the area in question against your tester?
I’ve seen a 427 split a cylinder wall between cylinders at around .100. Personally I wouldn’t dismiss that location.

Exactly.  It may not be a thrust surface, but a thin cylinder on any "side" is weak....also gets back to that ring seal point......a weak cylinder will flex.

Tommy T, your intuition to fill the block was spot on.
Totally agree on the fill. I didn't want to discourage the poster, but to be honest, I would be hesitant to build a motor that had a .079 spot in a cylinder wall ANYWHERE, filled or not. I know some guys do it, and skate by, but that's pretty bloody thin. You might skate by depending on where, down low between cylinders would be best scenario, but that's awfully thin, regardless. Too bad its already filled, if it were only one cylinder that thin, I would sleeve the hole.

13
FE Technical Forum / Re: Boring 390's
« on: September 20, 2019, 02:43:17 PM »
The Being '66 was the first year and 70 the last year of the 428 as far as vehicle installed most I looked at to replace my block with that split two cylinders are relatively thin at 4.130. I have sonic checks on four blocks I considered for purchase. The thickest wound up being a 105 D4 block. I have .140- .156 and this is at a 4.155 bore.  One of the lessons learned with the new block is how important it is to bore the block with a torque plate. Charles at Charles machine was showing me that the distortion is usually .005 or more.  Not one of the earlier FE specific book offerings mention this.  Very little about it until Barry's books.
I am going to fire the new engine this weekend.  Hopefully all goes well. It seemed strange to grind the tangs off of the Cleveland mains. I hope all is well there too. Perhaps the cam is the largest concern. Always nerve racking breaking in flat tappet cams.

                                                                                                           -Keith
Keith, I wish I was as fortunate as you when I went searching for a thick 390 block. The thickest I found was also a D4TE block. The machine shop sonic'd it and said it would be thicker than .100 everywhere after a 4.130 bore. Got it done and in the meantime got an Ebay sonic checker. Naturally, when I sonic'd it myself after the boring, I found a place .079 was the thinnest, and 3 other spots below .090. Filled it to the water pump holes and am going to run it. Wouldn't have started this project if I didn't already have the pistons and crank.
No more .080 over 390 blocks for me. I do believe the "thickies" are out there...but really hard to find.
Good luck on the cam break-in.
Very little mention on here of WHERE the thick or thin spots are, which is vitally important. .079 between the bores? Meh, who cares? .079 on the minor thrust side? I'd be pretty nervous. .079 on the major thrust side? Its scrap.
The other question I would be asking myself, is my ebay sonic tester as accurate as the one the machine shop used. I realize they pinged it before they bored, and you pinged it afterwards, but that's still a question worth asking. Is it possible to get them to re-test the area in question against your tester?

I’ve seen a 427 split a cylinder wall between cylinders at around .100. Personally I wouldn’t dismiss that location.

Recently I spot tested a 390 with my eBay sonic tester that I had previously tested by a professional machine shop - all the readings I got were within .000 to .003 of what the shop noted on the sheet, I was pleasantly surprised by that, considering I may not have had my transducer on the exact same spot. It’s common practice of course to check your sonic tester on a spot on the block you can actually measure with a micrometer or caliper, so it’s easy to see if your eBay sonic tester is accurate. One nice thing about having your own tester is the ability to test as many places as you want, one FE block I was playing around with this spring I noticed a small area significantly thinner than the surrounding areas, and outside of the normal 0, 90, 180, 270 degree areas you check. Would it be an issue, maybe not, but good to have the info.
good info on the ebay sonic testers. I have thought about buying one a few times, but at my age, I will probably just be building the stuff I have and not acquiring much in the way of new blocks, I am not sure how much use I would get out of it.

14
FE Technical Forum / Re: Boring 390's
« on: September 20, 2019, 09:42:55 AM »
The Being '66 was the first year and 70 the last year of the 428 as far as vehicle installed most I looked at to replace my block with that split two cylinders are relatively thin at 4.130. I have sonic checks on four blocks I considered for purchase. The thickest wound up being a 105 D4 block. I have .140- .156 and this is at a 4.155 bore.  One of the lessons learned with the new block is how important it is to bore the block with a torque plate. Charles at Charles machine was showing me that the distortion is usually .005 or more.  Not one of the earlier FE specific book offerings mention this.  Very little about it until Barry's books.
I am going to fire the new engine this weekend.  Hopefully all goes well. It seemed strange to grind the tangs off of the Cleveland mains. I hope all is well there too. Perhaps the cam is the largest concern. Always nerve racking breaking in flat tappet cams.

                                                                                                           -Keith
Keith, I wish I was as fortunate as you when I went searching for a thick 390 block. The thickest I found was also a D4TE block. The machine shop sonic'd it and said it would be thicker than .100 everywhere after a 4.130 bore. Got it done and in the meantime got an Ebay sonic checker. Naturally, when I sonic'd it myself after the boring, I found a place .079 was the thinnest, and 3 other spots below .090. Filled it to the water pump holes and am going to run it. Wouldn't have started this project if I didn't already have the pistons and crank.
No more .080 over 390 blocks for me. I do believe the "thickies" are out there...but really hard to find.
Good luck on the cam break-in.
Very little mention on here of WHERE the thick or thin spots are, which is vitally important. .079 between the bores? Meh, who cares? .079 on the minor thrust side? I'd be pretty nervous. .079 on the major thrust side? Its scrap.
The other question I would be asking myself, is my ebay sonic tester as accurate as the one the machine shop used. I realize they pinged it before they bored, and you pinged it afterwards, but that's still a question worth asking. Is it possible to get them to re-test the area in question against your tester?

15
FE Technical Forum / Re: New FE Blower Intakes
« on: September 19, 2019, 06:56:01 PM »
Has anyone put a blower case on one of these yet? Mine just showed up a couple of hours ago, I dropped my blower on, it looks like the bolt pattern that the case bolts down to is back to front. I have to check with a buddy of mine that builds 6-71s, I think I can swap the rotors end for end in the case when I rebuild it, but otherwise I gotta plug the bolt holes in the manifold and re-drill the pattern!

EDIT: Its all good, I just talked to my guy, when you rebuild a original 6-71 (like mine) you are SUPPOSED to reverse the rotors. WHeeew! Big sigh of relief, I can sleep tonight!

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