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The Road to Drag Week 2014 / Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 10
« on: August 11, 2014, 08:18:22 AM »
I'm glad you found the leak and I'm glad it wasn't serious. The hood looks good, kudos to the fiberglass man.
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The Road to Drag Week 2014 / Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 3
« on: August 04, 2014, 10:23:17 AM »What kind of chain was it, Mark? Just curious...
it was a 9-keyway billet gear Cloyes with a "usa" chain. I thought it would be good enough for this application but apparently quality control is gone. I have a friend of mine that broke 3 in a row early in the season. Rollmaster German chains for me from now on, it's to expensive just to try and save $40-$50
I used the Right Stuff for a lot of years, but I like the Ford TA-31 a little better. It is about the same consistency as the Right Stuff, and it comes in a caulk tube, which I find easier to use than the pressurized bottles that the Right Stuff comes in.
the "Right Stuff" comes in caulk tubes too. Just sayin'
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The Road to Drag Week 2014 / Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 3
« on: August 04, 2014, 09:17:17 AM »
Jay, that was painful to read. My weekend wasn't quite as bad as yours but it still sucked. I had a fresh engine with low oil pressure, pulled it down, couldn't find anything wrong, replaced the pump. Oil pressure was good, went to the race track with the owner/car and it made a total of 4 laps before the brand-new timing chain broke 
As far as the sealer issues, there are only 2 sealers I use during engine assembly.
For gaskets, end-rails, uneven surfaces, etc. I use "the Right Stuff" by Permatex. It is not silicone per se, it is a rubberized sealer and is very thick. It requires no skim time and once installed will never, ever leak. It will also never, ever come apart (It will but the stuff is unreal). I highly recommend "the Right Stuff" for your oil pan gasket.
For fasteners with straight threads I use Permatex "Ultra-Black" this is a silicone based sealant and is much runnier than "the Right Stuff" so it works better on threaded fasteners.
As far as the sealer issues, there are only 2 sealers I use during engine assembly.
For gaskets, end-rails, uneven surfaces, etc. I use "the Right Stuff" by Permatex. It is not silicone per se, it is a rubberized sealer and is very thick. It requires no skim time and once installed will never, ever leak. It will also never, ever come apart (It will but the stuff is unreal). I highly recommend "the Right Stuff" for your oil pan gasket.
For fasteners with straight threads I use Permatex "Ultra-Black" this is a silicone based sealant and is much runnier than "the Right Stuff" so it works better on threaded fasteners.
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The Road to Drag Week 2014 / Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - July 27
« on: July 30, 2014, 08:14:32 PM »900 HP: Peterson advised me to go with a -16 oil pick up line with their wide-vac external wet/sump two stage vacuum pump deal. So far so good.
Do you run a larger than normal pick up line with your motors?
I haven't ever tried that to be honest with you. -12 seems to work fine. I don't see where -16 would hurt though.
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The Road to Drag Week 2014 / Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - July 27
« on: July 30, 2014, 02:42:55 PM »
I should add that on our Engine Master's Pontiac motor, we were pulling a measured 8.9" of crankcase vacuum with a pan-evac set-up. Vacuum pumps and dry-sumps are not legal for the competition. To get that kind of vacuum out of a pan-evac the motor does need to seal up well. This engine has a Viton rear main seal installed in the normal position.
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The Road to Drag Week 2014 / Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - July 27
« on: July 30, 2014, 02:39:15 PM »Jay, I'm sorry if I derailed your thread
I always gap the second ring .004" looser than the top ring. I have also gone to .043/.043/3mm ring packs on most of my engines.
This is the same thing I do, Jay. .004 wider/looser on the 2nd ring
Mark, when you do a dry sump motor do you reverse the rear main seal? I did that on this engine, and had second thoughts about it, but it is indeed in there backwards. I know of at least one well respected engine builder who does that, and one who prefers not to. Any thoughts?
I use special vacuum seals from Signal Motorsports Technologies, I get them from CV Products. If they don't have an FE size for you (probably not) I would use a good Viton seal but install it normal, I've not had good luck installing them backwards. I know a lot of people do it but it has never worked for me.
That being said, I haven't done a pure dry sump deal with lots of vacuum either. All of my vacuum pump motors are wet sump so I limit vacuum to 10-12". After that, oil pressure drops. At 10-12" a normal Viton rear main seal holds up just fine and you can pull plenty of vacuum with it.
I think I would have to re-visit it if I was pulling 18" or more of vacuum.
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The Road to Drag Week 2014 / Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - July 27
« on: July 30, 2014, 01:10:11 PM »
Jay, I'm sorry if I derailed your thread 
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The Road to Drag Week 2014 / Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - July 27
« on: July 30, 2014, 01:09:16 PM »Thanks Mark.
Hadn't thought about the crank case side of the rings.
I only had the simple view of containing combustion.
Really am enjoying learning this stuff.
remember that if you can build pressure under the rings (for whatever reason) that pressure can un-seat the rings. Ring seal is #1 as far as getting the most power and best drivability and least oil consumption from a combination. You will find it's very common to gap the top ring tighter than the 2nd ring. This goes against the tradition of gapping the top ring wider (the theory here is it's hotter so it expands more and needs more gap so it doesn't touch). The reason for this is because IF some combustion pressure leaks by the top ring, you do not want it to be able to build pressure between the top ring and the 2nd ring causing the top ring to unseat. I almost always gap my 2nd ring .004" wider than the top ring to make sure no pressure builds between the rings.
It is also best to get rid of the antiquated 1/16"-1/16"-3/16" ring packs and go with a more modern, thinner pack like a 1.2mm/1.2mm/3mm because the thinner rings actually seal better and today's materials are so good they last longer as well. There are a number of benefits to using thinner ring packs, especially at higher rpm. Almost all of the O.E. (I say almost because I don't know all of the engines from all of the manufacturers) are using thin rings now. The reason they do is due to emissions and oil consumption requirements but the end result is the thinner rings seal better.
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The Road to Drag Week 2014 / Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - July 27
« on: July 30, 2014, 08:36:10 AM »Still curious how negative pressure would affect oil as far as leaking out of the block.
Does it affect it at all?
Since I've never run a pump I have no idea.
I have multiple engines with vacuum pumps/vacuum systems on them. One would think that if you are pulling a vacuum in the crankcase that it would not be possible to leak oil out but that is not true. I had a BBC that leaked oil on the right side, it took forever to find, there was a pin-hole in one of the fabricated valve cover welds. The engine had 10-12" of vacuum (wet sump) yet still leaked out the pin hole. I also had a front seal leak on a circle track SBC even with 10" vacuum.
The interesting thing is that if it can leak oil out it can definitely leak air in so by fixing the leaks you should see more vacuum. The other thing to consider is that if it can leak air in it can also leak dirt in. This isn't a big concern on a drag race car but it can become a big concern on a car that is driven in dusty conditions. It doesn't take much dirt to ruin bearings.
The biggest advantage to running negative pressure in the crankcase is that it allows us to run ultra-low tension oil rings and still maintain ring seal. This reduces parasitic losses. You can't run 5-8lb tension oil rings (at least for very long) without having vacuum in the crankcase as they won't seal. It is absolutely imperative that you keep oil out of the combustion chamber so you can see how important vacuum becomes.
I did a test once with a methanol motor. We were making dyno pulls with VP M1 and no top-end lube. We added the recommended 1oz of top-end lube per gallon of gas (or maybe it was 1oz per 5 gallons I don't remember now) and the engine immediately LOST 10 HP!!!! We removed the fuel with the oil in it and the power came right back. We then used VP's top-end lube which is lead based, not oil based, and power remained the same.
This should show you how important oil control is. If you are pulling spark plugs on your engine and the threads have oil on them you still have some work to do on the oil control. Adding a vacuum system will help greatly with this, as will the right ring package, the right cylinder wall finish, round cylinder walls, etc. Another thing to consider is bay to bay breathing. If you have an engine with poor bay to bay (meaning air can not move around freely in the crankcase) this can hurt ring seal as well. Vacuum systems will help with this issue some as well but I personally don't think you can have too many crankcase vents (internal of course) to connect the heads, valley, and lower crankcase together. The easier it is for air to move around in the crankcase the easier it is for the rings to remain sealed.
These are my thoughts on the issues anyway.
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The Road to Drag Week 2014 / Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - July 27
« on: July 29, 2014, 08:56:39 AM »
Jay, on the oil leak, is it possible you have a fitting or line that has a leak and it's migrating down the oil pan rail to the rear? Just a thought because I know it was dry on the dyno so I've been thinking about what could have been changed/removed/reinstalled from the dyno to the car.
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The Road to Drag Week 2014 / Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - July 27
« on: July 28, 2014, 12:10:14 PM »Well crap an oil leak! Not good! Hopefully it's not coming from the back of the block.
Hell that plenum top is a giant coaster! Next time mill a couple of "FE Power beer goes here" spots. Maybe do a nice blue anodized script inlay too.
For Outstanding Racing Drinks ?
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The Road to Drag Week 2014 / Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - July 27
« on: July 28, 2014, 11:26:23 AM »
It looks like a cross between a race car and the space shuttle. I hope the oil leak isn't a huge deal, I can't wait to see this thing go! 
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The Road to Drag Week 2014 / Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 29
« on: July 24, 2014, 01:32:50 PM »
Here's a photo David Vizard took of me when we were testing filters on the EFI 565 @ almost 900 HP on 91 octane. (the photo shows a carburetor because we tested with that too)
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The Road to Drag Week 2014 / Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 29
« on: July 24, 2014, 01:23:46 PM »Don't want to hijack Jay's thread,but that's some VERY interesting info, indeed, Mark - as cjshaker noted.
Do you clean the K&N's at all during the course of the season?
We do not. I have tested a lot of other filters against the K&N and to be honest have never found more than a couple of horsepower difference as long as the filter is large enough for the engine. There is more power to be had with the proper shape base and top as well as the right distance from the base to the top.
The K&N was compared to an HVAC filter with "large holes" and using dirt to filter. This is not entirely true and is a common misconception about the K&N filters. K&N uses a natural cotton fiber and this fiber has little "hairs" on it. If you hold a K&N up to the light, yes you can see though it. However, when the engine is running the little "hairs" vibrate back and forth effectively blocking dirt from getting through the filter. This is why you can't use a K&N copy, they use a cheaper synthetic fiber and it doesn't have the "hairs" an you will destroy your engine (at least in a dirt car you will) I had this happen to me when a customer bought a new filter that was "just like" a K&N only cheaper.
I am not sponsored by K&N nor affiliated with them in any way but I do use their products (at least their filters) and I have been happy with them. I will tell you on a dirt 2bbl car the best base is the carbon fiber one from R2C not because it makes the most power but because it's very, very rigid and seals well. A large domed top usually works the best too. I have put a lot of effort into keeping dirt out of my engines and this is what works for me.
I should add, the reason we quit cleaning the filters is because I found a decreased ability to filter dirt after washing them (compared to a new, clean filter or a used dirty filter) I personally think this is because the little "hairs" don't work so well after washing. We just run a filter for the season and trash it afterwards. As long as I can wipe the carb with a clean white rag and it comes out with no dirt on it I'm happy. It really helps to keep the cost of the freshen-up down when you don't have to replace every part in the engine due to abrasive contamination (dirt)
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The Road to Drag Week 2014 / Re: cdmbill2 you run Wix Asphalt Racing a filter on track and K&N on street.
« on: July 17, 2014, 08:56:25 AM »personally I'd be surprised IF the K&N filtered as well as even a asphalt race grade Wix with their T66 media. The T88 media is dirt track grade. Would be interesting to install a accurate gauge to measure vac inside the filter housing to see how the filters perform at WOT max load. Looks like Wix does not make T88 paper media filters in your 16x3.5 size. You should at least look if holes in the media when held in front of light are visible to the naked eye as they are with the K&Ns. K&Ns use cotton gauze a large dia fiber and can't utilize as many pleats (surface area) as a paper filters.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALL26029-Air-Filter-Element-16-in-x-3-1-2-in-Paper-Each-/360976759316?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item540be43a14&vxp=mtr
I did an air filter test on a 896 hp 565 street engine I built. With a K&N 16x4 filter set-up the power difference from filter to no-filter was less than 1 hp through the entire dyno pull, you could overlay the graphs.
I also use K&N filters exclusively on my dirt oval track engines, it's the only way I can keep bearings in the motors. I have tested the Wix and the R2C filters and after a feature race I can wipe dirt out of the carburetor bores when using a clean white rag. Having a rigid base and top and sealing the filter with grease is very important as well under dirt track conditions. The trick to using a K&N filter is to use a genuine K&N not a copycat and don't wash it. I see degraded filter performance even after the first washing. We run 1 filter for a season and then throw it away. I have dyno'd back to back with a used K&N and a new one (dirt track motor 450 hp level) and found around 2hp difference. Not enough to worry about and that was a very dirty filter.