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FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: chilly460 on August 02, 2020, 06:08:59 PM

Title: Welding a 427 block
Post by: chilly460 on August 02, 2020, 06:08:59 PM
Snagged a standard bore 427 marine block at Carlisle with a cracked water jacket, and wanted to get an opinion on the best way to fix.  Also, any known good cast iron welders in the Mid Atlantic region, let me know as I can travel a bit to get the block fixed. 

Can't read the date code on this one, first number is mangled.  I know sometimes they can be dated depending on which foundry location they came from, this is a DIF block.  Looks to be drilled for hydraulics but I haven't pulled the plugs for the galley crossover to see if they're plugged. 

Pretty excited to get a 427 block and had to take a bit of a leap a faith to grab it. 

(https://i.postimg.cc/4dFqhD3Q/AA10-A9-D9-FA5-D-4-DE3-86-E8-AA8409-F30183.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/d10g3sJ0/AD21-AE2-F-822-F-4783-B83-E-BB776-CD2-DD24.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpjvq0Xb/A3-BD9-CDC-3-DDF-46-D4-B9-AF-2-CEDF96-E0-CA6.jpg)
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: Chrisss31 on August 02, 2020, 06:28:32 PM
You can look into stitching it back together too.  I've seen this done before it's pretty neat.  There are a few places that do it, below is just an example.

https://www.metalockengineering.com/en/typical-repairs/metal-stitching/
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: Chrisss31 on August 02, 2020, 06:39:31 PM
https://www.precisioncastingrepair.com/
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: chilly460 on August 02, 2020, 06:41:22 PM
Thought about the stitch locks too, but wasn’t sure if they’d hold water, I’ll look into it
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: thatdarncat on August 02, 2020, 06:46:20 PM
The date code under the oil filter adapter pad looks to have the two dots under the leading year digit. Those two dots under the year started around 1969. Just going by memory, but I don’t think I’ve seen any FE blocks with the two dots in 1968. Your block doesn’t appear to the have the external “ribs” on the outside of the block, best we’ve figured out so far the “ribs” started near the beginning of the 1971 calendar year in DIF cast blocks. There’s a thread going elsewhere on the forum here about the “ribs”. So my guess is it was cast in 1969-1970 calendar year.
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: wayne on August 02, 2020, 07:26:32 PM
Find some one who can check it over good before you put much money in it i  had two Fe broke like that a 427 and a 428.After fixing the crack like yours they both leaked inside some where.I am not trying to rain on your parade i hope yours is ok.
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: 475fetoploader on August 02, 2020, 07:39:35 PM
Worked at a Diesel machine shop, we called that pinning. Fixed lots of big, odd diesel blocks with huge windows in them that way. We had good success with no external leaks. Very time consuming, but none of the problems associated with welding existed.
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: jayb on August 02, 2020, 07:58:28 PM
I'd also recommend pinning, you can do it yourself.  Not that hard, I've fixed SOHC heads with it.  I use the products from the link below:

http://www.locknstitch.com/index.html
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: cammerfe on August 02, 2020, 10:22:41 PM
For welding, the best, bar none, is Chris Razor, Hi Tek Welding, 734 414 1994, in Plymouth, Michigan. When he welds cast iron, he uses a system developed for repairing the giant ladles used in steel-making. Last I knew, he was a co-owner of the necessary equipment along with Jack Roush, who is his partner in the stuff. Chris does their specialty work.

Back in 1990, FoMoCo built a running prototype/show car and called it the GT 90. It was powered by a V-12 version of the four-cam V-8. The crank and cams were billets made for the purpose, but the block and heads were made by lopping the front two cylinders off one set of castings and the back two off another set. Chris Razor welded the two sets of six together  to make a 12 cylinder running engine. The engine had four turbos on it.

I have seen Chris run a perfect bead on the sharp edge of a razor blade.

KS

Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: blykins on August 03, 2020, 04:51:15 AM
Chris, my local guy can handle that pretty easily.   Text me if you want his number.
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: jimeast on August 03, 2020, 07:01:44 AM
I've used Midwest Cylinder Repair to weld up an SOHC head that was too far gone to stitch.  Probably 12 yrs.  They were recommended on the FE forum.  Did a great job.  They should be able to do a block since the SOHC head is about as big as a block :)
 
It was a proper repair, first they heat the part in an oven to a very high (red) temp and then weld in or melt in cast iron material.  I think their main business is diesel and farm equipment cylinder head repair

Some of the guys on this forum or the FE forum have used them.  Maybe you can get a more recent review.

With this block after the repair (regardless on how it's fixed) you should expect a full machining regimen

Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: 428kidd on August 03, 2020, 07:25:55 AM
I'm going to second Brent's local guy I've used him a lot the last couple years!! Rays does great work and pressure tests them before they get a clean bill of health!
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: chilly460 on August 03, 2020, 09:27:16 AM
Appreciate all the feedback, will sort through responses and follow up.  It'll probably come down to proximity more than anything as it's obviously going to be $$ to ship a block. 
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: RustyCrankshaft on August 03, 2020, 09:02:27 PM
Stitching works and if done well is water tight and you can't tell where the repair has been done. I've done quite a few big diesel block repairs.

Also stitched dozen of 4-71 Detroit blocks! EPA gave a tug boat outfit a grant to repower a bunch of stuff with newer engines. They started with all the auxiliary engines and I had a friend who works for them and got hired part time and worked on the project on weekends. The grant required that the old engines be destroyed. Hole saw in the shirt between mainwebs is a destroyed block! Kept all the knocks, paid the tug company the scrape value and took home a couple dozen nice gensets. Stichted the plugs back in and a little paint and good as new.
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: C6AE on August 04, 2020, 01:11:33 AM
I have pinned a few blocks and many heads over the years. If there was metal missing I would head for a junkyard and pick another block to cut a piece from.  Not always the same engine even! There is one B-20 Datsun with a chunk of sbc pinned into it!  Fitting in a slightly larger piece made for a very good repair.
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: BigBlueIron on August 04, 2020, 09:02:38 AM

Also stitched dozen of 4-71 Detroit blocks! EPA gave a tug boat outfit a grant to repower a bunch of stuff with newer engines. They started with all the auxiliary engines and I had a friend who works for them and got hired part time and worked on the project on weekends. The grant required that the old engines be destroyed. Hole saw in the shirt between mainwebs is a destroyed block! Kept all the knocks, paid the tug company the scrape value and took home a couple dozen nice gensets. Stichted the plugs back in and a little paint and good as new.

John Deere 5020 similar deal, EPA was doing kind of a cash for clunkers but with tractors in populated areas. Basically older tractors where trucked into a specific dealer that met the location requirements within city limits of Dallas, where they "decommissioned and scrapped" and collected a big check. Starter was removed hole cut in block behind it. Then sold for about 1/2 of market value. Those tractors have a weird oil pan/filter design where as once the large cover is removed from the bottom you can reach up in the pan with your arm and fish out the slug.. Pull the starter back off weld it up and back to work.  That tractor was in amazing shape too, and still is.
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: RustyCrankshaft on August 04, 2020, 04:56:07 PM
The 5020's were good stuff. Reliable and fairly simple to work on from the little I was around them. The dumb thing about all this EPA stuff is how much environmental impact does it have on manufacturing a new engine/tractor/car/whatever from scratch vs maintaining a decently efficient old thing? My old Freightliner gets just under 8mpg, essentially the same truck but a year old is getting 5. So burning 3mpg more fuel is cleaner? The math just doesn't add up.

Welding is definitely faster and in many cases works just fine. I like stitching those pieces back in when I can just because once it's done you can't tell there was even a repair done unless there was text that was obliterated in the process.
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: Henrysnephew on August 04, 2020, 06:07:49 PM
The LocknStitch pinning system is time-consuming but very effective.  Here's a CJ block with similar freeze damage that I repaired several years ago.  Randy M
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: Stangman on August 04, 2020, 07:21:15 PM
That looks like a good repair Henrysnephew. Have you used that block and if you did did the repair hold up.
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: Henrysnephew on August 05, 2020, 10:20:37 AM
Yes, the repair was successful and passed pressure test before I applied an epoxy "topcoat" just for peace of mind.  Randy M
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: Gregg on August 05, 2020, 11:36:19 AM
Hey Randy.  Not meaning to hijack this thread, but just wanted to let you know that the 390 I bought from you a few years ago is still running great.
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: hbstang on August 05, 2020, 11:56:12 AM
you could try this.it seems to work good.and if you can do your own welding save some bucks.
https://www.muggyweld.com/video/how-to-weld-cast-iron-engine-block/
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: chilly460 on August 05, 2020, 12:26:57 PM
I'd be all for trying the Lock n Stitch, but my concern is the crack is right along the edge to that vertical valley in the block, marked in red.  It would be putting the locks in a position trying to straddle the edge so to speak, don't know how easy that would be to drill freehand. 

(https://i.postimg.cc/j5XXdyHW/DSCI1464.jpg)
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: Henrysnephew on August 05, 2020, 03:43:46 PM
Hey Randy.  Not meaning to hijack this thread, but just wanted to let you know that the 390 I bought from you a few years ago is still running great.
That's great Gregg - glad to hear that.  Still running the iron intake and 4100 carb?  Here's how this old guy installed your intake.  Randy M
Title: Re: Welding a 427 block
Post by: Gregg on August 05, 2020, 04:40:26 PM
Yep, still running the old iron intake and 4100....at 8.9 miles per gallon.  But I don't care.  I blame the 2.5" exhaust and magnaflows, I just can't help myself.