FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: BigBlueOvalFan on July 29, 2020, 04:17:58 PM
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As the title suggests, I can't seem to get my screw in freeze plugs to completely seal. The block is an Aluminum Pond Block with steel pipe thread plugs. No O-ring, just sealed with Permatex Aviation Sealant. I usually test my systems with compressed air (at 15psi) and spray all fittings, hoses, plugs, etc with soapy water to make sure I'm sealed up. This particular engine however is giving me fits. I was able to fix one screw in plugs by cranking the plug a bit tighter but I have two more that have a very small leak. It will not blow bubbles from around the screw plug, it only foams slowly which means it's a small, slow leak. After reading some other forums and comments, guys have stated that the leak will subside once the engine heats up and 100% Ethylene glycol will not leak as readily as the air. I'm not certain about these ideas. And, the system will leak all the way down to 0 psi air in the system if left overnight. Any ideas ? It's already in the car, so do I just fill it 100% with antifreeze and hope for the best ? I don't want to crank on these plugs any further as cracking the casting would be a tragedy.
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Why steel plugs? That will pose a problem once the block is up to operating temperature.
I'd get the correct plugs from Pond.
If you want to take a chance, throw some Moroso ceramic seal in, you'll probably want to do that anyway with an all-aluminum engine.
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Steel plugs is what came with it. Bought the bottom end already built by Pop's before they went under. I also had a Genesis FE aluminum block I purchased from Keith Craft about 8 years ago that had Steel Plugs as well. Never had a problem with that engine though. I'll give the Moroso ceramic seal if it leaks once I fire it all up, just wanted to get ahead of it right now while I have some stuff out of the way and can easily access the plug in question. The other side would be a bigger effort and I'm trying to avoid it all. I'll also call Pond to see about the plugs for backup. Thanks
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Steel plugs is what came with it. Bought the bottom end already built by Pop's before they went under. I also had a Genesis FE aluminum block I purchased from Keith Craft about 8 years ago that had Steel Plugs as well. Never had a problem with that engine though. I'll give the Moroso ceramic seal if it leaks once I fire it all up, just wanted to get ahead of it right now while I have some stuff out of the way and can easily access the plug in question. The other side would be a bigger effort and I'm trying to avoid it all. I'll also call Pond to see about the plugs for backup. Thanks
Did you go through the bottom end? Pop's couldn't make a cast iron engine last much less an aluminum one....
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Yes, I did. I heard they had problems with their builds so I tore this one apart and re-checked tolerances, clearances, etc. I didn't re-balance it, just hoping they got that part correct. I never removed the plugs as I've never had an issue with them prior on other blocks, however this is the only Genesis block I've owned. Turns out this is a Genesis block so the Pond plugs will not work. He uses an O-ring type plug and these are large pipe thread type like the original iron blocks. I also heard GM has some tablets that they used that would seal up their problems with Cadillac blocks.
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The Pond blocks I've used have had aluminum plugs with o-rings. I would want the material of the plug to match the material of the block so the expansion rates are similar. Seems like you'd be looking for leaks if they were dissimilar metals.
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Yep, it seems this is a poor design. I spoke with Pond and they stated that they abandoned this design and went with the O-ring design after about 30 blocks.
By the way, the Moroso ceramic seal sounded great but they state it doesn't work with antifreeze, which is bizarre. This car is going to MI so it needs antifreeze in it. I really don't want to remove all the plugs and replace them with aluminum so I may have to rely on the AC Delco tabs. I hear they had success with sealing up all their leaking Cadillac engines with these tablets.
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Yes, you could do that, or use Bars Leak tablets. The Ceramic Seal will work, but it has to be water, not Ethylene Glycol. I think you can let it coat, then switch back to antifreeze.
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The Moroso ceramic seal will work with antifreeze, you just have to have plain water in it while the sealer is in there. After 24 hours the sealer and water is drained, and you can fill it with whatever you want. I've had good luck with the stuff.
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The Moroso ceramic seal will work with antifreeze, you just have to have plain water in it while the sealer is in there. After 24 hours the sealer and water is drained, and you can fill it with whatever you want. I've had good luck with the stuff.
Thanks Jay, I didn't know that. Would you suggest the Moroso ceramic sealer over the AC Delco (GM) tablets. I've heard great things about the tablets but haven't used either. Sounds like you've had good success with the Moroso product and I'm wondering if you've ever tried the tablets.
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The Moroso ceramic seal will work with antifreeze, you just have to have plain water in it while the sealer is in there. After 24 hours the sealer and water is drained, and you can fill it with whatever you want. I've had good luck with the stuff.
It seems Moroso also sells an "All Weather Seal" similar to the ceramic sealer and works with Antifreeze. Wondering if you've tried that and had any success. Not sure it's a ceramic though.
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https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/product/thread-sealants/loctite_577.html
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I am a machine fitter and have been for many years....Aluminum expands at 3 times the rate of steel....Steel plugs in a alloy engine is just problem in my opinion.......JMO......Cory
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Thanks Jay, I didn't know that. Would you suggest the Moroso ceramic sealer over the AC Delco (GM) tablets. I've heard great things about the tablets but haven't used either. Sounds like you've had good success with the Moroso product and I'm wondering if you've ever tried the tablets.
I've never tried the All Weather Seal or the tablets, so I can't comment on those...
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When using the Moroso Ceramic Seal, it's my understanding that the block needs to be flushed a couple of times to remove any antifreeze residue remaining inside. I just bought a bottle in case I decided to try it on my engine, just as a band-aid to get through the year.
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Thank you all for your input, I'm going to give the Moroso seal a try.
If that doesn't work, does anyone know if they produce aluminum screw in freeze plugs for these FE Aluminum blocks ? Pond only carries their O-ring type that will not fit a Genesis block. I'm thinking Genesis went out of business partly because of this poor design.
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Try Tim Meyer, tmeyerinc.com. He has made brass plugs before, and may have made aluminum plugs also. He is out today and tomorrow, but back in his shop on Monday.
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X3 - used the Moroso seal in both a fresh block with only distilled water and a block with antifreeze, although when I use antifreeze I mix it way like, like 20%. I only shoot for 10~20F. We're not running if it's below 50 anyway and all I need it enough to maybe sit in the box trailer. Yes, it should work better without. If it is a street engine, run the Moroso and distilled water first, drain, flush then go with the street coolant mix.
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McMaster-Carr lists aluminum pipe plugs in their catalog. They might need to be cut down as they look a little thick but it might be worth looking into.
https://www.mcmaster.com/aluminum-plugs/low-pressure-aluminum-threaded-pipe-and-pipe-fittings/
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McMaster-Carr lists aluminum pipe plugs in their catalog. They might need to be cut down as they look a little thick but it might be worth looking into.
https://www.mcmaster.com/aluminum-plugs/low-pressure-aluminum-threaded-pipe-and-pipe-fittings/
Excellent info.
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A caution on aluminum pipe plugs. Unless they are anodized, they will gall and seize when used against non anodized aluminum parts. I have gotten away with it, using lithium grease on straight threads but, I haven't done a pipe thread.
Machining them down, is also problematic and you'll need a pipe fitting to screw them into. If the small end needs to be shortened, you'll have to turn a step to hold it, on the big end first, flip it around, shorten the small end, then put it back in the pipe fitting to shorten the big end.
Measure carefully, since the thread is on a taper, it's easy to miss your mark. Screw it in, 2 or 3 times, with the torque you want to use first, before measuring.
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Frank is right, aluminum on aluminum threads can be a bugger. It might be a good idea to find a pipe dope with teflon in it. I would also recommend a soft setting dope and I wouldn't crank them in too tight.
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Note, if these are o-ring or mechanically sealed they may not be a tapered pipe thread at all.
They may be straight pipe and or dry-seal threads as well as a gasket or o-ring seal and they could be any thread pitch the manufacturer decided to use. Tapered dry seal threads are available in two tapers, 3/4" per foot" and 7/8" per foot (more common in automotive applications)
There are many variations of "pipe thread", rarely if ever are "water pipe threads" used in automotive applications, they have a built in "leak" at the root of the thread.
edit to add: gasket (mechanically) sealed usually indicates a straight thread.
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Yes C6AE is correct, identifying the type of thread/sealing method is key. I'm pretty sure Ford factory plugs were 1 1/2" NPT (National Pipe Thread) for what that's worth. No matter what, putting some thread schmutz for lubrication and to help seal can't hurt.
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Yes C6AE is correct, identifying the type of thread/sealing method is key. I'm pretty sure Ford factory plugs were 1 1/2" NPT (National Pipe Thread) for what that's worth. No matter what, putting some thread schmutz for lubrication and to help seal can't hurt.
I'm pretty sure they are Dry-Seal threads which are a slightly different thread form, often used with a NPS (Straight) female thread to insure uniform depth of the plugs. (It is almost impossible to do production tapered threads and keep a uniform depth of seat)
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Are the threads really important?
Couldn't you find an aluminum plug the fits "good enough", and then weld it in? No leaks.
Is there any reason to ever remove the plugs?