FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 440sixpack on July 28, 2020, 11:29:01 PM
-
I have headers on my '76 high boy with a 428 in it. I'd really like to put manifolds on it but I'm not sure if I have any options beyond the stock log style.
I'm wondering if anyone knows if the CJ manifolds will work ? that would be my preference but from what I see I doubt they'd fit. then there is the style with the fins , or ribs that supposedly fit pickups but I can't verify.
I don't think there are any other options but I'd like to know if there are.
-
What heads do you have? If you have typical 2 bolt exh. pattern heads, like the truck would have left the factory with, no go, as 7 of the 8 exhaust ports on the CJ exhaust manifolds used the "side by side" exhaust bolt pattern, so only 2 bolts will work on the drivers side, and none on the passenger side. Plus, unless you already have the CJ exh. manifolds, you will likely pay more for the CJ manifolds than a set of good, ceramic coated long tube headers. Why do you want to put exhaust manifolds back on anyway? My 74 F350 cracked 3 exhaust manifolds before I installed a new pair of Hedman headers, the gas mileage and power increase was very much improved with headers, and no more cracks and leaks. I did replace the headers with new ones, after 14 years, only because they look so crusty, but reality, they were still pretty solid.
-
+1 on everything Rory said. Even if you have the right heads, every stock cast exhaust manifold is pretty much crap and will kill power in a big way. I realize not everyone is after big power, but they will not only hinder performance, but mileage as well, in a big way. The shorty cast headers would be a decent compromise, or a set of shorty tube headers, but no way would I go back to stock corks. They are all pretty horrible.
-
I have kind of wondered the same myself on my truck. But hedders work, make power, and they all get hot. Unless someone had some to test fit it would be no option, very cost heavy. The only benefit may be longer term performance with no leaks but a good set of hedders and proper torque process normally stops that. If you have certain aftermarket heads then bolting up would not be your issue but fit would. On my BBM's I had to do a little hammer and socket work to make my Heddmans clear. Not bad, and about the same as I had to running D2 heads but had to give them just a little more room for the spring retainer on the passenger side and the RobMC starter, which is actually just a tiny smidge longer. When I get around to relieving the block I can clock it more and it will be a non-issue. Hopefully they don't leak. They are not an exact fit, but are very close. Amazes me how the engine bays are so huge but stuff gets tight very fast!
-
Using contemporary header coatings will keep steel tube headers nice and clean, prevent rust and really cut down on underhood heat.
Just wish these wonderful if not cheap coatings were available many years ago as I struggled with rust and high underhood heat.
-
Sounds like maybe I better leave well enough alone. I have the crossover headers you need for a high boy and they actually aren't that bad I just don't care for headers.
I left the rubber splash shields off and that helps a lot Maybe I'll wrap my starter and call it good.
-
Sounds like maybe I better leave well enough alone. I have the crossover headers you need for a high boy and they actually aren't that bad I just don't care for headers.
I left the rubber splash shields off and that helps a lot Maybe I'll wrap my starter and call it good.
I don't know about the '73-'78 dentside Highboys, but my '68 Highboy used Hedman headers and required no crossover pipe, although it did use a 2 piece design on one side (can't remember which side). Also, they were not at all close to the starter. Since it had a 4" body lift, I could literally reach through between the frame and fenderwell and pull out the starter.
A good set of mufflers would quiet it down quite a bit, if sound is your major complaint about headers.
-
I have headers on my '76 high boy with a 428 in it. I'd really like to put manifolds on it but I'm not sure if I have any options beyond the stock log style.
I'm wondering if anyone knows if the CJ manifolds will work ? that would be my preference but from what I see I doubt they'd fit. then there is the style with the fins , or ribs that supposedly fit pickups but I can't verify.
I don't think there are any other options but I'd like to know if there are.
How much power is your 428 making?
A stock 7-Liter is 300-315hp, and the 2-1/4 outlet truck or 68-up car logs are pretty good up to that level.
I've seen the old 406 shorty iron on trucks, forgot what years but those might fit and are ok to 400-450hp.
Beyond that you need headers.
-
...I've seen the old 406 shorty iron on trucks, forgot what years but those might fit and are ok to 400-450hp.
Beyond that you need headers.
I don’t have any personal experience, but I have seen quite a few people post over the years that they have used the Shorty cast headers on pickup trucks. I think you have to make a small frame notch. I haven’t paid attention if it matters which model years of pickup truck though, and it may matter that it’s 4x4.
Kugal Komponents just started making reproductions of the Shorty cast headers, it may be a bit before they can catch up on pre-orders, but you can check them out if you go that way. Unfortunately the price for new reproductions came in about the same as used originals, so no price savings. Jay’s testing for the book showed the Shorty’s worked fairly well. I know Kugal has posted on Facebook, someone may have mentioned them on the forum here too. Here’s a link:
https://kugelkomponents.com/8307-2/
-
I wouldn't dream of going back to manifolds. I still remember installing headers on a lowly 360, didn't expect much but it was a drastic improvement with no other work.
I haven't seen 4x4 headers with a crossover tube, those don't sound very fun.
-
I asked about those cast manifolds for use in a truck, and I believe the reply was that they would fit but did ( might ?) require some clearancing on the passenger side frame rail.
-
My 65 F-100 used to have the original Ford cast iron shortys. The notch was on the passenger side. The choke boss cleared the non power steering box. Latter on I bought a pair that had been pulled off a wrecked 74' F Series. He had shaved the choke boss off the driver side. I do not know if the truck had powers steering or was a 4X4. The recast manifolds do not have the choke bosses.
If I put shorys on the 65 F-250 the frame is getting curled. I have seen both installs and the curl looks better.
-
Headers for the 4x4 are different than 2 wheel drive. The Hooker have two tubes that go under the motor mount on the right side and slip into the the other tubes before the collector. That can be hassle is they rust together but worth it for the extra power. Most other companies only have two wheel drive headers. I think because the steering box isn't in the way you can pretty much fit any manifolds on the left side but the frame is narrow and the engine is offset to the right so the passenger side may need to be notched.
-
I have headers on my '76 high boy with a 428 in it. I'd really like to put manifolds on it but I'm not sure if I have any options beyond the stock log style.
I'm wondering if anyone knows if the CJ manifolds will work ? that would be my preference but from what I see I doubt they'd fit. then there is the style with the fins , or ribs that supposedly fit pickups but I can't verify.
I don't think there are any other options but I'd like to know if there are.
[/quote
How much power is your 428 making?
A stock 7-Liter is 300-315hp, and the 2-1/4 outlet truck or 68-up car logs are pretty good up to that level.
I've seen the old 406 shorty iron on trucks, forgot what years but those might fit and are ok to 400-450hp.
Beyond that you need headers.
My low compression 390 in my 74 F350 was basically stock, and even though I rarely revved it over 3500 RPM, the headers still made a significant improvement in power and gas mileage. I can`t imagine any situation where I would ever want the "log" exhaust manifolds on any FE that I would own.
-
My headers are fine I'm just not a header fan, mostly because of leaks and the heat. I pretty much fixed the leaks with Remflex gaskets abd while I haven't toasted a starter yet I suppose I will.
Will a mini starter help any ? I was looking at the RobbMC starters. maybe I should just put one on and call it good.
-
I don't see heat being an issue with a starter in a truck unless the headers are unlike any I've seen for Highboys. But if it is, the RobbMC starter is an excellent choice and will eliminate the problem. Is there any way you can post a picture of your headers? I haven't seen any truck headers with the crossover tube, or where the rear tube caused a heat issue with a starter, so I'm curious what yours look like, or who made them.
-
I am with Doug on the hedder design. None I have seen for a Highboy have the cross tube. It could be done I guess but there are x-members and trans pan and little room. Would be neat to see what you have.
On the Rob Mc Starter...I have one on mine, with hedders and a Highboy. It is actually longer than an OEM starter...just a hair, less than .125. Smaller but mainly different just due to design.
I have it clocked as far as I can but it needs to go more. At this point it is only marginally better than the OEM setup in regards to clearance.
However, grinding on the block on the "ear" will allow me to clock it further and then it will be a good distance away from the hedders and much better in that aspect than OEM. In short, some work is required. Very nice unit though and will be nice and tight to the block and away from the Heddman's when I get off my but and get the die grinder out.
-
I run a stock Azone starter on my '69 f100 for decades. I finally just replaced the starter last summer after so many years I don't recall when it was done last. Mine has those typical tight 2wd headers on it and has not caused issues with any starter. It was starting to crank slow. The new starter sounds like a gear reduction now compared to the vintage one I replaced.
I just put a RobbMc starter on the wagon. Fits okay, I have the solenoid clocked downward slightly and works fine. Though it has only been used a few months now and the car does not get hot at the track. I ran an Azone starter on it for years also, but with the new motor being 496 ci, it was starting to grunt a bit so I figured I would take the plunge. I got the starter WITH the nose cone support. Seems the extra $20 is worth it.
-
My headers cross over the front drive shaft and go side by side down the right side. the collectors are way below the starter.
I haven't had and starter problems so far I just want to avoid any. the tubes are all several inches from the starter, do you think a heat wrap or a mini starter is a good idea ? or a wrapped mini starter maybe.
-
If your headers are a couple of inches from the starter, I doubt wrapping the starter with anything would actually accomplish much, but up to you. Like Battlestar, I have always had good luck with the big, factory style starters. The Hedman and FlowTech headers on my old 74 F350s 390 were almost touching the stock starter, ran it like that for over 25 years with no issues. The stock starter on my Fairmonts various FE engines was also almost touching the header tubes, even with close to 12.1 compression, the stock starter and single, trunk mounted battery never caused any issues.Good cables, connections, and grounds eliminate many "starter" concerns. Considering how tight some exhaust manifolds are to the starter, like 428 CJ manifolds, and how much longer the cast iron retains the heat compared to thin steel tubing headers, I would think most headers would make a starters life easier. Especially if the headers are ceramic coated. Considering than most aftermarket mini starters were originally designed to spin over a little 4 cylinder Japanese engine, giving one the task at cranking over a large displacement, high compression V8, seems to be asking a lot.
-
Yeah my starter was basically contacting the hedders...very close. BUT I never had an issue with it. Simply went with a Rob Mc due to a change up on power levels, cleanliness, and hopes it would go on with out removing headers and lifting the motor. Pretty certain at this point it will not, not with these hedders(Heddman 4x4 #89120). It will be plenty far enough away from heat once I can clock it better. Had I known it would not save me the pain on replacement I likely would have went back OEM.
I will say previously I wrapped the tube that was essentially touching the starter. I see no downfall to that. I was worried that mud and water etc. would have a negative impact on a wrapped tube, found when I redid the hedders that tube was actually in better shape than the rest, go figure. I think you will be fine if you are concerned with just wrapping the hedder. My down tubes are what is close to mine, not the collector. Sounds like you have Thorley Hedders or some custom type. Took some doing to route that cross over. I have been studying on how to do an H-Pipe exhaust on mine when I get to buttoning mine up...not a lot of room with 3 drive shafts, large t-case, x-members, E-brake cables, and a narrow frame. I feel it can be done but I do not think it will look clean and be tucked up and safe as I would like. Good luck, still would like to see some pics of the setup.
-
My headers cross over the front drive shaft and go side by side down the right side. the collectors are way below the starter.
I haven't had and starter problems so far I just want to avoid any. the tubes are all several inches from the starter, do you think a heat wrap or a mini starter is a good idea ? or a wrapped mini starter maybe.
That is a very very ODD design for any Ford truck header! I have never seen, and see no need for, the left header tubes to cross over and go down the right side. Even on a Highboy. I'm not even sure what they were thinking in building them that way. If they seemed to be an issue, I'd ditch that design for a conventional header that goes down each side.
I too ran a stock starter for over 23 years on my Highboy, and over 15 years on my Mach 1. Never had an issue. It wasn't until running in Drag Week, where I was running 55mph for hours on end, with 4.30 gearing, that the heat started to take a toll on the starter. And that was only an issue on quick fuel stops. If I let it sit for 15-20 minutes, it would start without issue, but sitting for 20 minutes after every fuel-up was not something I was keen on. Connections and grounds were not the issue in my case, it was simple heat saturation in the windings, which increases resistance. And I am still using the same battery that I had before the switch, with zero issues.
Rory, I can assure you that the RobbMc starter is indeed better at cranking over a hot, high compression FE than any standard starter. Lots of guys using them can attest to that. The standard OEM style starter is still a good design; I still use one in my F-350, pulling a 9000+ lb trailer non-stop for over 8 hours (possible with a 120 gallon fuel reserve...lol), but the headers in that truck don't hug the starter that close. Nothing like a Mustang, for sure. I think the OP will be fine with a standard starter.
-
Since the high boy had a divorced transfer case and a very long drive shaft coming forward that moves up and down with the front axle on the left side it's not possible to run a pipe in that space. they are an odd design but really don't seem to be anymore trouble than any other header I've run.
I left the rubber splash shields off the inner fender to allow more air around the starter. you can see the starter through the hole so hopefully I can find some black wrap of some kids for the header tubes. it would look awful to see silver there.
-
Since the high boy had a divorced transfer case and a very long drive shaft coming forward that moves up and down with the front axle on the left side it's not possible to run a pipe in that space.
My '68 Highboy has a New Process divorced transfer case and Dana front axle, same as your '76, and all the headers for it are side run. You have to make a fairly tight jog on the exhaust pipe to get around the transfer case, but that is how all headers for Highboys run, that I've seen anyway. Your headers are definitely different from anything normal.
-
Mines a 1/2 ton, and I run dual 3 inch down the passenger frame. I'd like to see those headers, would be cool if the header went that direction to help the initial bend
-
It's in the final stages of being repainted so it's still at the paint shop or I'd take pictures. they're really pretty simple the left one just comes over to the right side under the bellhousing. both collectors are side by side at the bottom pointed directly rearward. like any standard headers.
They do hang down a bit , not a problem on a 4x4 but on a 2wd it would be about as low as you'd want and still have any ground clearance.
-
FWIW- I have run the 406 shorties since 1985, had to notch frame on passenger side, I haven’t had to worry bout rusting out but I have had them blow out seal at pipe a few times... mine is 2wd... for those reading this thread if you recall the 2wd headers did phenomenal in jays testing but that company quit making them... I called they said just dropped the product ... no one bought them out... I’d like to put a good set of headers on mine ...but don’t know what brand for 2wd... any suggestions?
-
I also have a 71 camper special (2wd).
As near as I can tell, there are several options for headers, but all have a 1.75 tube.
Now that would be perfectly fine, but one of these days, hopefully soon, I’ll be dropping a fairly grunty 520 in there.
I would like at least to try a bigger tube.
Mad dog headers makes several passenger car headers with a 2 inch tube, but nothing for the FE F100-250.
So I got to wondering if one of the passenger car headers would fit, or could be made to fit with a little love?
-
I have a set of shorty 406 headers installed on our 74ish stock class pull truck, frame massage required on passenger side for header outlet... on my drag truck I bought a speedway Motors header kit 2” with 3.5” collector... it had enough bends to fit the truck, stock starter or ebay planetary mini work just fine on my truck with the 13:1 520 inch deal.
-
Not to Hijack the thread but - This post is in response to a post by HarleyJack17 I am building a 69 highboy crewcab with a 505 FE . Headers are ceramic coated Sanderson highboy headers with 428CJ bolt pattern 1-3/4 primary with 3" collector. I got a Flowmaster U-Fit kit and ran dual 3" pipes all the way back with a 2-1/2 H pipe crossover
I have been studying on how to do an H-Pipe exhaust on mine when I get to buttoning mine up...not a lot of room with 3 drive shafts, large t-case, x-members, E-brake cables, and a narrow frame. I feel it can be done but I do not think it will look clean and be tucked up and safe as I would like. Good luck, still would like to see some pics of the setup.
I can post some pics if anyone or HarleyJack is interested
-
Would love to see Pics!
-
I ran headers on my 74 for years with no stater trouble so much room the heat gets away.A guy in town had fender well headers
-
I am late to the show but post them up 69 Crew. My Highboy is a regular cab so you have a few feet on me in terms of space to work with. 69 CCab is pretty rare.
-
Harley
All the hard stuff is from the headers to the transfer case. From there back everything is smooth sailing . Mine got a little more complicated at the back because I put a rear mount 31 gallon tank back there and want duals all the way back.
I tried to post some pics from my phone but couldn't wrong format. as soon as I figure out how to post pics I will
-
2-1/2 cross over with 3 inch pipe and ultra custom light weight PVC drive shaft
Sorry if the pic is big
-
2-1/2 cross over with 3 inch pipe and ultra custom light weight PVC drive shaft
Sorry if the pic is big
I hope that's schedule 40 PVC, otherwise I think you might have issues with that driveshaft. ;D
-
I run full 3 inch mandrel bent with a 3 inch X-pipe. I turn immediately toward passenger side with both pipes, then run down the frame rail side by side, then back to normal position behind the tranny. There is plenty of room for 3 inch.
Originally I did this with a Dynomax kit did this in the 80s with 2.25 and no crossover, I copied the concept when I did big pipes. I used to cross the left and right side, left bank/right outlet. I used to think it was better to keep them sort of equal length, but couldn't do that with the 3 inch and I think the X-pipe does me good anyway. This is a shortbed 4x4 with a married case, I would expect an F250 to have more room
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDbC6pxG/20160612-115410-zpslep42qsg.jpg)
These of course are laying upside down on the floor and miserable Flowmasters live on the shelf awaiting anyone else but me :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8P3sRK62/20160612-115311-zpslsy8vcgu.jpg)
-
Couple good looking exhaust setups, one day I will have a highboy to drive again.
PVC driveshaft should handle the load though the short bluetooth shaft.
-
69 Crew. That is pretty clean. My long tubes may not allow for that crossover as they end right at the X-member. I like how you did it. Turning the muffler up helps to. My concern would be the piping hanging below the frame, but after this expense of building this thing, I doubt it ever sees serious off-roading again. Doing it like you have it would allow more working room for sure.
Ross,
You would think so, but having the divorced T-case takes up A LOT of room. The passenger side drive shaft(front) is really long and gets in the way of everything on that side. On top of that they are narrow between the frame rails. No way you could run two pipes side by side like in your pic. Things are working completely against you from about the cab forward. Not impossible but tricky...maybe impossible for the only muffler shop around here.
I gotta get it figured out soon though. I am buttoning up the wiring and maybe a week from the first fire. Neighbors are going to enjoy the open hedders but I am NOT putting the second rate piping and glass packs back on it. Did Pterodactyls "Kakkle"? I imagine the noise this thing made with that setup had to resemble a prehistoric nightmare. HAHA.
-
I ran both my pipes down the passenger side, with mufflers turned up sideways and staggered, with duals run over the axel and out behind the right wheel well. No burned shins or kneecaps at the bumpers that way. I have always felt the angle of the pipe exit helped with evacuation of the pipes like a jet fighter pitot tube. Joe-JDC
-
I run full 3 inch mandrel bent with a 3 inch X-pipe. I turn immediately toward passenger side with both pipes, then run down the frame rail side by side, then back to normal position behind the tranny. There is plenty of room for 3 inch.
Originally I did this with a Dynomax kit did this in the 80s with 2.25 and no crossover, I copied the concept when I did big pipes. I used to cross the left and right side, left bank/right outlet. I used to think it was better to keep them sort of equal length, but couldn't do that with the 3 inch and I think the X-pipe does me good anyway. This is a shortbed 4x4 with a married case, I would expect an F250 to have more room
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDbC6pxG/20160612-115410-zpslep42qsg.jpg)
These of course are laying upside down on the floor and miserable Flowmasters live on the shelf awaiting anyone else but me :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8P3sRK62/20160612-115311-zpslsy8vcgu.jpg)
You don't like the flowmasters...????I have them on my 68 with a Dr.Gas x-pipe..Have considered a change.I see yours have turned gold as well.....