FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Royce on October 01, 2019, 01:06:15 PM
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Quick update. Blair Patrick is currently in the lead in scoring with his 400 inch FE. He made peaks of 597 horse 510 torque with iron heads 10.5 compression and .600 valve lift. The Chevy competition is concerned. Lol
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Incredible number. Can't wait to hear the details on this build. Is he running his CNC C4AE-G heads?
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Yes C-4 G head not sure on porting.. Kaase yet to run..
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Thanks for the update, I've seen nothing else, there were usually several sources for up to the minute info in past years.
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There are five engines left to run. Kaase is first out in the morning, and will definitely be a serious threat. He told me today that he thinks it will be a tall order to get past the 390. No doubt he is a sharp cookie. I guess we will have to see. Thanks to all of my friends and customers who frequent here who have been interested and supportive. Both the block and the head castings came from forum members. Fingers crossed.......
The heads on my engine are extensively ported. We made programs, so I will be able repeat these ports in pretty much any Low Riser type head.
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Keeping my fingers crossed Blair! Hopefully that little FE can slay Goliath.
- Bill
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Almost 600hp on a small cubic inch FE with factory iron, on what sounds to be a pretty streetable combo, given the right car. And not even using a factory "performance" head! I'd love to get a gander at the torque curve.
Good luck, Blair. Beating Kaase at anything engine related would be quite a feat. That man reads a rule book from back to front, then turns it inside out, but I think the rules really limit him this year. It'd be awesome to see an FE in the winners room!
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Kaase just ran basically put up same numbers as Blair with 30 more cubes. Only good enough for 3rd place. 2 ND place is a very impressive 289 from Mummert. 4 small scrubs to run yet. Unless one of them really surprises me I would say Blair's score is pretty safe
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Looking good for Blair right now. I ran one of the small blocks on my dyno and know that we cant cover the number with that one (we will do our best but it wont be enough).
My 410 came in light, but the dyno numbers were exactly identical to what I had at home - within one horsepower and one pound of torque. Dyno calibration is spot on....
Put in a huge thrash yesterday to get Boshears 429 running. Engine had never been fired up before the competition. Had an exhaust rocker come loose during warm up. We got it together and made some clean pulls. Might have been competitive with some development
Kaase should have painted that engine blue...
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I'm wondering what head castings and everything that small block ford ran. That's the last engine I expected to be battling for the lead.
Very cool, Blair.
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Pleasantly surprised this morning. I kinda expected Kaase to score better than us. We had about 60 points more. He's a smart and gracious guy either way. He told me that he wished I had built a 427 because he hated to get his ass kicked by a 390......all with a smile. Fingers crossed.......a batch of SB Chevs still left.
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2 SBC down and 2 to go to try and knock off Blair.
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Oh man this is awesome, so exciting to read the play by play. Congratulations Blair, stoked to see you kickin some butt at EMC this year. Do us proud...
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Pleasantly surprised this morning. I kinda expected Kaase to score better than us. We had about 60 points more. He's a smart and gracious guy either way. He told me that he wished I had built a 427 because he hated to get his ass kicked by a 390......all with a smile. Fingers crossed.......a batch of SB Chevs still left.
LOL, Kaase is most certainly a gracious guy, and genuinely very down to earth and nice. BUT, it serves him right for going to the "dark side" ;D ;D
Outstanding job, Blair! I still wonder if people get just how incredible those numbers are. That's 1.49 HP per cubic inch!! With factory iron! That's hard enough to do with good aftermarket aluminum heads, and there aren't a lot of guys who can pull that off.
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Way to go Blair !! Ask Jon Kaase about his Tunnel Port molds he has
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Beating Kaase at anything engine related would be quite a feat. That man reads a rule book from back to front, then turns it inside out, but I think the rules really limit him this year.
He got a shout-out in the rules I see... ;D
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Another scrub tries and fails to surpass either of the Ford's.. one 302 SBC left of unknown potential
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The 289 has a C8 block and a C5 head. Nothing special. Dual plane Edelbrock manifold. Lots of skilled work done on this one..
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The 289 has a C8 block and a C5 head. Nothing special. Dual plane Edelbrock manifold. Lots of skilled work done on this one..
What did it make for torque, Royce?
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289 made 370 torque 439 horse
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The top two scores are Blair at 2511 and Mummert at 2504. Kaase did a 2448
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Congratulations Blair! You've done us proud 8)
It's good to see a 289 on the podium as well. I'd love to hear more about that little powerhouse.
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Congratulations BP!
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That’s a big deal.
Congratulations Blair.
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Hang on folks. One scrub left to run.. Sorry to give the impression it was over.
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Either way awesome Blair, like Doug said 600 HP with all original iron stuff :o. Get in that winners circle.
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Well done Blair!
How did Joe Craine make out with the Y block?
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Anybody know why Kaase went to the dark side???.
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Anybody know why Kaase went to the dark side???.
Although he is a Ford guy, I don't think he has a side, he builds a different brand every time I think.
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I thought maybe he was abducted by aliens. ::) Well done Blair and lets not forget Barry and Joe.
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Well done Blair and lets not forget Barry and Joe.
No doubt!
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We’d never forget. Am just amazed at you guys.
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Can I ask a favor?.....Somebody that is there, can you write up a quick summary of engine, peak hp, peak tq, and score???
The coverage of this thing has been lousy. I believe in years past they had a live stream even?
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It's all over.. The scrubs had nothing for Blair or Geoff Mummert
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Ok now it’s a big darn deal.
Congrats Blair.
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You mean a bunch of SBC's couldn't beat a little ole Ford 289?
Good job to everybody, Blair, Barry, and Joe.
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You mean a bunch of SBC's couldn't beat a little ole Ford 289?
Good job to everybody, Blair, Barry, and Joe.
Yes, congrats to Blair! It's nice to see the extinct FE in another winners circle. At some point, given Drag Week, EMC, Ray's win at Indy (again)....the media have to be scratching their collective heads ;D 8)
And Mummerts 289 is pretty darned impressive. For the cubes, the 289 has to be the toughest little engine ever produced.
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You mean a bunch of SBC's couldn't beat a little ole Ford 289?
Good job to everybody, Blair, Barry, and Joe.
Yes, congrats to Blair! It's nice to see the extinct FE in another winners circle. At some point, given Drag Week, EMC, Ray's win at Indy (again)....the media have to be scratching their collective heads ;D 8)
And Mummerts 289 is pretty darned impressive. For the cubes, the 289 has to be the toughest little engine ever produced.
So, does anyone know the detailed specs on the 289? It's amazing how well it did and begs the question: How?????
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Congrats Blair! I saw a blip of Blair's engine on Hotrod's video. Nice looking piece with a Trickflow intake. What was the reason for all the various pipe fittings on the thermostat housing?
Edit: Hopefully Hotrod will do a tear down article.
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BP, you're fabulous---but then we already knew that!
KS
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Congrats! I'm curious if those heads came from my pile of parts? I would like to say "Yep those are my old heads, thought I'd let Blair borrow them for awhile" ;D ;D All joking of course!
Agreed on the poor coverage, kind of figured they would video it and pump out another "show" for the Motortrend channel. Actually was kind of hoping they would..
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Blair will be torn down at 9 am tomorrow. Hopefully Hot rod will cover it. All his secrets will be revealed!!
JE Pistons website should have some event coverage and interviews
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Congrats to BP, and well done to all the FE builders.
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There are five engines left to run. Kaase is first out in the morning, and will definitely be a serious threat. He told me today that he thinks it will be a tall order to get past the 390. No doubt he is a sharp cookie. I guess we will have to see. Thanks to all of my friends and customers who frequent here who have been interested and supportive. Both the block and the head castings came from forum members. Fingers crossed.......
The heads on my engine are extensively ported. We made programs, so I will be able repeat these ports in pretty much any Low Riser type head.
Interesting, How will those head work on the street in a heavy car?
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I think C4AE-G's just went up in value!
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Congratulations Blair! Excellent work!
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Congratulations Blair, glad I got my engine last year or it would probably cost me 5'000 more now that you are the champ!!!!
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We have a couple engines down there in Tennessee right now. I had particular interest in this engine because I wanted my Galaxie to have iron heads on it but still be able to perform reasonably well. Ever since Blair committed to running EMC with this iron head class, I've been talking back and forth and driving the guy nuts I'm sure.
Here are a few images of the internals that I had from our conversations back/forth. Asked Blair if I should pop them on here for you guys to see and he said go for it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGyBgCrq/IMG-20190712-153359928.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwfbxtZm/IMG-20190918-203844942.jpg) (https://postimages.org/) (https://i.postimg.cc/fyb0tJWR/IMG-20190919-002444606-HDR.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0Qnwyps4/IMG-20190918-164201940.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2XFcf8G/IMG-20190920-214122139.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Congrats Blair! Sure is a fancy paper towel dispenser. ;D
(https://i.postimg.cc/0Qnwyps4/IMG-20190918-164201940.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Way to go Blair, congratulations!! Great to show the world that the FE isn’t dead !
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Congrats Blair. This is a huge honor, but I didn’t need Engine Masters Challenge to know you are a great engine builder.
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Anybody know why Kaase went to the dark side???.
Since he obviously plays to win, I would guess that he simply wanted to offer final proof that Ford's Rule! :)
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Great job on the win. And for the little 289 in second as well. I guess this means next years rules will have to ban any engine with a front mounted distributor.
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Great job, Blair! That kind of horsepower from that engine with iron heads is wizardry! Having a 390 and a 289 place 1st and 2nd has really made my day. We'll see what rule changes there are for next year.
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That is Cool Blair, a 1968 390 was my first FE I beat it bad growing up and it took all I could give it, Blair You and Berry made us proud (Congratulations) !!!!!! Leny Mason.
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Congratulations to all our forum members that competed in this years Challenge. No doubt this takes a lot of
time, money and knowledge to be able to compete at this level.
Awesome job in taking 1st and 2nd place.
garyv
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Good job guys! I also want to see whats in that 289. Always thought that one might do well in EMC if the rule conditions favored it. Looks like that day finally came LOL.
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Well I am finally home so I will say a few words about what i saw at the EMC.. It was definitely a Ford fest. Not one Chevy even came close to winning, and 6 points separated Geoff Mummert's 289 and Blair's kick ass FE. A lot of jaws dropped when those numbers came up and yes Kaase included.. In addition there was a 385 series from Dan Boshears , a young and upcoming Ford builder, Barry's 410, and Joe Craine's Y block that put in solid performances. That little 289 crushed all the small block Chevies. I hope Geoff Mummert gives a detailed description of that build. A LOT of work went into it to make it perform like that... And keep in mind it is still a pump gas motor with a dual plane intake... I think Blair already has a buyer for those special G heads and I am thinking there will be a run on CNCd iron FE heads... Just a guess.
A word about Kaase..... Most of you know we are pretty good friends, having teamed up for 2 years on the MEL engine..When the rules came out I decided i was not going to run this year, and Jon was trying to decide what motor to build. The MEL was regulated out which happens a lot to Jon. There have been several Kaase rules implemented over the years.. One year, after he destroyed the competition several years in a row with his Cleveland, they made a rule you could not bring the same brand engine back. So he went and built a Pontiac and won again... Anyway after looking over the Ford lineup he did not feel there was a winning choice in there.. Just based on potential he chose the big scrub. I cringed,,,A lot of guys wonder why he went to the dark side ... Well Jon is brand loyal to a point, but one thing I learned about him is he has this total commitment to winning , so when he thought the BBC had the best chance to win that is what he went with.. He will acknowledge freely it was a bad choice as the big scrub never did perform like he expected..He was very gracious to Blair and Geoff and generous with the complements and was genuinely interested in how they accomplished what they did. I sure have learned a lot watching how he does things..He is one impressive dude.
I took some pics and a few videos and will try to post them up on here.. I will let Blair Joe, Barry,and Geoff talk about their engine builds
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Couple of pictures Of Blair's Barry's and Joe's engines
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So much respect for all you guys.
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Aside from the porting, which you can't just look at and "reproduce" and get the same results, I doubt there will be much to see in Blair's teardown. It's not like Kaase's out-of-this-universe bronze combustion chamber/head gasket idea, that resulted in killer power. So I'd be prepared to be let down if anyone is looking for a smoking gun as to why the engine performed the way it did, and hoping they can repeat the results. The devil is in the details, and those are not readily apparent when just looking at an engine.
The C4 heads have been known for a while to be the best factory FE head out there, aside from the performance designed MR, HR heads. So that shouldn't surprise anyone. Might be interesting to see if any port filling/raised runners have been done though. Other than that.....yeah, it's just a bored out 390 that kicked a bunch of Cheby butts. Nothing special 8) 8) ;D
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What was the reason for all the various pipe fittings on the thermostat housing?
Pretty sure that's just so it can be easily adapted to the dyno water cooling. Time is pretty precious when getting everything ready to go.
Barry said the dyno was pretty accurate, but I'd be curious if any changes were made during the allotted dyno time, like jetting etc, or if it was good to go as-is? I believe there's a fairly significant elevation change from Tennessee to Cleveland, although it was pretty hot and humid this week in Ohio.
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https://youtu.be/O68xGttF-u4 (https://youtu.be/O68xGttF-u4)
https://youtu.be/wf9MWxIOd2Y (https://youtu.be/wf9MWxIOd2Y)
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Does anyone have an update on the tear down inspections?
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As with most engines the secret sauce is in the heads.. Some things will be neat to look at in Blair's motor like what valve sizes and valve train parts he used. You should be able to look inside the port and tell how much he changed the shape and also what was done to the combustion chamber. No welding or epoxy was allowed in the ports so they are as cast with no holds barred porting. Kaase tried some tricky stuff with the valve seats on his BBC but was bummed that it did not help at all..
They keep trying to write the rules to make scrubs competitive, but Fords win nearly every year
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must of been those .046 over Pistons on the smoking gun 390 , :) great job BP , " the little 289 that could " sure is impressive too , would be curious on the .046 Piston was just what was needed or part of the Math ?
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One thing I noticed with the dyno cell during testing that I'd like someone to explain....
There was no intake hood on any of the engines in the EMC testing cell. Usually you'd expect to see a dedicated hood for engine supply air with an air turbine to collect data on airflow rate. Because of the air being exhausted out of the room, you'd expect the room to be slightly negative pressure (.5" to 1") and inherently the engine supply air in this situation would be slightly less than expected. Why do they run them like this during competition?
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Congrats Blair, a dinosaur at the top. I love it!
JB
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The JE Pistons dyno is housed inside their mfg facility and does not use outside air. It pulls from inside the building.. There are two huge exhaust fans in the booth and they actually do pull a slight depression.. It is very different from most dyno cells, but then everyone runs under the same conditions.. The dyno adjusts the correction factor in real time to reflect heat humidity barometric and altitude. Correction factor was between 1.072 and 1.079 when I was watching it. The air turbines on older dynos have been replaced by wide band oxygen sensors to monitor A/F ratio
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The JE Pistons dyno is housed inside their mfg facility and does not use outside air. It pulls from inside the building.. There are two huge exhaust fans in the booth and they actually do pull a slight depression.. It is very different from most dyno cells, but then everyone runs under the same conditions.. The dyno adjusts the correction factor in real time to reflect heat humidity barometric and altitude. Correction factor was between 1.072 and 1.079 when I was watching it. The air turbines on older dynos have been replaced by wide band oxygen sensors to monitor A/F ratio
Hopefully their weather station is inside the cell? Otherwise they're accounting for the wrong baro pressure. Agreed though, everyone is running on the same dyno so all is fair.
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Just heard from Blair. Tear down went as expected. He is the official winner. So proud of him.
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We are not worthy! Congrats on a hard job well done. ;D
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I'll be the latest to pile on and give BIG congrats to Blair! What a fantastic result.
He did the 482 for my Galaxie and I've been very pleased; not just with the finished product but the excellent before and after-sales help and advise he has provided. I just need to call or text him to get the benefit of his years of expertise and experience, no matter how small the issue is.
It's a very strong case to continue to support the engine builders and vendors who contribute to this forum!
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Thanks very much to all of you for the kind words. It was good to go back to the contest after 10+ years of watching it from a distance. It is a great experience with a bunch of good people. As with all of this, the relationships last longer than the few minutes in the spotlight. Happy to win it, but long term friendships and mutual respect for the other guys will stay around for the long haul, and that is what matters in the end. I appreciate the support of this forum. The FE ruled this time!!!
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Thanks very much to all of you for the kind words. It was good to go back to the contest after 10+ years of watching it from a distance. It is a great experience with a bunch of good people. As with all of this, the relationships last longer than the few minutes in the spotlight. Happy to win it, but long term friendships and mutual respect for the other guys will stay around for the long haul, and that is what matters in the end. I appreciate the support of this forum. The FE ruled this time!!!
...and the next...and forever! Congrats x10 on a job well done.
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I'll pile on, too.
Simply amazing! I think this is the first time an FE has won in any category in this competition. Congratulations, Blair!
paulie
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I'll pile on, too.
Simply amazing! I think this is the first time an FE has won in any category in this competition. Congratulations, Blair!
paulie
I do believe you are correct in that it is the 1st FE to win.
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I’m still proudly trying to wrap my head around the fact that a 390 beat out a scrub big block. Through all of our lives the Hot Rod rags have beat it into everyone’s head that the scrub big block and hemi were king.
‘Scuse me while I kiss the sky.
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Great job to everyone who competed, love seeing our beloved FE's so well represented.
Mr. Blair, I have some questions looking at the tear-down photos if you don't mind.
What is going on with the oiling system in the lifter valley? Additional "splash"...er geyser oiling for the lifters or just to throw people off? :)
Also, the center main wasn't cross bolted. Was this intentional or time constraint thing?
Again, great work!
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I had better jump in and say great job Blair and every one with a ford it just shows the old fe is the big dog when you rattle its chain.Little 289 also was great.
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There is a bunch of pictures here of the teardown. Blair and gang pulling 'er apart and Adger measuring everything. After years of chatting with him online at Stock/SS forum and emails I met Adger for the first time at DragWeek where he was a tech official, great guy.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/iron-ford-390-fe-makes-596-hp-using-stock-heads/#020-2019-engine-masters-blair-patrick
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Someone mentioned it earlier, but I am curious about the center cap as well.
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Great job to everyone who competed, love seeing our beloved FE's so well represented.
Mr. Blair, I have some questions looking at the tear-down photos if you don't mind.
What is going on with the oiling system in the lifter valley? Additional "splash"...er geyser oiling for the lifters or just to throw people off? :)
Also, the center main wasn't cross bolted. Was this intentional or time constraint thing?
Again, great work!
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All I can say is congratulations Blair, great job! There is a possible reason for that #3 cap not being crossbolted. Blair explained it somewhat to me when we were discussing a build he is going to do for me. I had purchased a set of pro-gram 2,3,4 caps and wanted to use them. Don't think it is any secret but I will let him decide if he wants to share. Once again congrats!
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Probably has something to do with #2 and #4 doing most of the work, and the #3 thrust being more difficult to install. Probably plenty strong with #2 and #4 in this case
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DITTO for all the accolades in this thread. Great to see OLD IRON RULES Congrats
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Awesome Win!
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I'll pile on, too.
Simply amazing! I think this is the first time an FE has won in any category in this competition. Congratulations, Blair!
paulie
Monkey pile on Blair
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In the tear down pictures I see 6 what appear to be brass hose barbs inside the lifters in the valley. I am probably showing my inexperience when I say I have no idea what they are.
And very nicely done.
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In the tear down pictures I see 6 what appear to be brass hose barbs inside the lifters in the valley. I am probably showing my inexperience when I say I have no idea what they are.
Those are vents. They are tall enough to not let the excess oil in the valley drain back onto the cam and cause excess windage. They must be hollow to allow proper ventilation from downstairs.
Probably has something to do with #2 and #4 doing most of the work, and the #3 thrust being more difficult to install. Probably plenty strong with #2 and #4 in this case
That is correct. I just went ahead and cross-bolted #3 on mine just for the aesthetics. Just looks weird with two bolts. :)
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Those are vents. They are tall enough to not let the excess oil in the valley drain back onto the cam and cause excess windage. They must be hollow to allow proper ventilation from downstairs.
So I am assuming a hole or passage was machined into the block and it is a brass hose barb to a pipe thread (or similar) and then threaded into the hole.
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I assume also that the oil is all directed back away from the crank and cam or maybe even an external drainback ahead of the flywheel?
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Or just puddling oil on the lifters
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It looks to me, that he is raising the oil level, to oil the lifters, in the valley. Then draining the right side, to the rear and the left side, to the front, to even the flow back, away from the crank.
It looks like he has siliconed the front drain back closed, on the right front, to that end.
I would also guess that the oil to the lifter galley has been blocked, to get more available flow to the crank.
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The purpose of the standpipes is to keep the oil off the cam/crankshaft. The drain at the front of the block is open (oil drains to the timing set) and the drain at the rear of the block is open, which allows the oil to drain and stay off the rotating assembly.
On SBF's, the holes are in the center of the valley and are correctly sized for a 1/4" NPT. Standpipes are sold OTC for such and you just run a tap through the holes. On an FE, the holes are much larger, but you can still tap the hole and use a pipe nipple or hose barb.
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The purpose of the standpipes is to keep the oil off the cam/crankshaft. The drain at the front of the block is open (oil drains to the timing set) and the drain at the rear of the block is open, which allows the oil to drain and stay off the rotating assembly.
On SBF's, the holes are in the center of the valley and are correctly sized for a 1/4" NPT. Standpipes are sold OTC for such and you just run a tap through the holes. On an FE, the holes are much larger, but you can still tap the hole and use a pipe nipple or hose barb.
Brent and Jared, thanks for the explanations. Been a while since I had my engine open and I didn't remember the holes being there. What applications call for this treatment? Does a street engine benefit or just a race engine (not that I plan to dismantle mine to make the mods)?
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As I said, he has blocked off the return hole on the right side, channeling the oil return, to the rear. giving a flow directly across the lifters on it's return path.
The left side flows forward, in the same way. Because of that, I see no reason to supply pressurized oil to the lifters with a solid roller cam. I don't know if he did but, I would then block the pressurized oil to the lifters, as it isn't needed and eliminates that oil bleed off.
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Frank, the return hole is right in the front of the block. You can see the timing set through the hole.
The oil will flow whichever way gravity makes it flow. The dyno isn’t moving so you don’t have normal acceleration forces pushing it one way or the other.
The standpipes just insure the majority of the oil doesn’t drain onto the rotating assembly. The oil will basically pool until it gets high enough to go out the front drain or the rear drain.