FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 6667fan on May 19, 2019, 05:45:02 PM
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Get as far as the retaining collar mounting flange just inside the bell opening, so about .375 to go. Using lower guide pins, bell was dialed to within .010 out of center from left to right. 12 to 6 was near even.
Tried having someone depress clutch and wiggling trans. Used plastic alignment tool when clutch was bolted on. O.D. of tool and input shaft match. Rotated engine a few degrees with breaker bar in between attempts to get trans home. Thinking of scaring up a input shaft and installing it and taking some measurements to see if disc is centered. All this finagling is done from under the car and it is getting old.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
JB
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First time I did this (as in first time I ever installed an engine - I'm only on #2 but the second one was a breeze) I resorted to taking off the inspection plate, rotated the clutch and backed off all the clutch to flywheel bolts, and let it float a little. While one guy messed with the engine and another rotated the crank a little, I moved the clutch back and forth a tiny bit and it finally seated, then rotated the engine slowly and tightened the clutch through the inspection plate.
Not elegant but at the end of a long and very frustrating day got it done. I think we took the engine out 5 times and redid the alignment. One guy was an experienced junkyard builder and the other a journeyman mechanic, so it wasn't their first install.
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Sometimes the sun and moon are NOT in phase and seems it will never go. Sometimes I fight for 1/2 hour, then just roll out and take a deep breath, relax and then roll under and it literally FALL into place.
I use old input shaft for alignment. Even though, you can get slop as the disc will pull down on the dummy shaft. I usually wiggle it in out a few times after tightening the pressure plate to make sure it's not dragging on the pilot bearings and actually some what below centerline.
If you have someone with you, then can get in the car and push clutch as you wiggle. Sometimes that helps. Don't get over zealous, as you don't want to have to pull it apart if the disc falls out of location.
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What kind of bell? I've had to lightly 'clearance' the retainer opening in one of my Lakewood housings because the retainer was just too snug to draw up properly. I just took some heavy sandpaper around the insides until it slid in easier.
Otherwise, like Larry said, sometimes you just have to take a break and walk away, try again later, and sometimes it'll just slide in then. I never like to depress the clutch because it can move and be off alignment then. If the clutch plate is centered with an alignment tool or input shaft, and it can be eyeballed pretty accurately afterwards to make sure it is correct, then you shouldn't have to touch it. Getting the transmission on a perfect center, on 2 different planes (vertical and horizontal), can be hard sometimes, even when you swear it's right on. I keep telling myself I'm going to get a proper trans jack, but I'm too cheap and always do it by hand, balancing on a floor jack. ::)
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Is it a small block top loader? Will not go all the way in on FE unless you modify/shorten pilot shaft. Joe-JDC
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2X to what Joe said.
Also, if it's new Lakewood bell (or maybe even a lightly used one) be sure to sand away all the red paint from the i.d. edge where the front bearing retainer sits. Amazing but this is sometimes just enough paint to keep the tranny from seating.
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I use 2 long 7/16 bolts that I cut the heads off and squared the ends.I use them for studs to line it up and support the weight.
I too have struggled doing it but is sounds like something is not quite right here...
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What bellhousing and trans vintages are you using? On my 59 Ford 2 door sedan, I have a 428 Cobra Jet engine, a 1966 small block wide ratio Toploader, and a 1961 cast iron bellhousing. The early (pre 65) Ford manual transmissions use a smaller bore size for the transmission front bearing retainer than later models, so I had 2 options. I could either find a 1964 only Toploader bearing retainer, have the larger retainers OD machined down to the earlier size, or do as I did, and have a machinest bore the early bellhousing to the later size (4.84").
Concerning the small block vs FE input shaft length, yes, the small block input does have a slightly longer pilot tip, but on my car, I mocked up the engine/trans/bellhousing without a clutch or flywheel, but with a pilot bushing, and, at least with my setup, the small block input had enough space to allow the trans to go all the way in, and still have sufficent space between the pilot bushing and the splined section of the input shaft without needing to trim the tip of the input shaft. Like Larry said, a old steel input shaft fits much better than a cheap plastic line up tool , if the input shaft slips in and out of the clutch when its all bolted together, the disc is centered, and there should be no need to loosen the pressure plate bolts, or depress the clutch pedal to make it all fit. Like others, I have had the odd occasion where the trans didn`t want to go in properly, walking away for a bit, then retrying the install with a fresh attitude, usually does the trick. before installing the clutch assembly, did you test fit the disc onto the input shaft, to confirm the disc slid easily onto the inputs splines? Check that the new throwout bearing easily slides all the way along the bearing retainers sleeve? That the pilot bushing fit properly over the tip of the input? Often, even if your attempt to install the transmission has the input tilted just a little bit can prevent an easy install.
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Pilot bushing or bearing?
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I proved the bell mouth had no interference with trans while trans and bell were on the shop floor so there is not an interference there. The bell is a new older Lakewood that I have not used before that was purchased from a forum member. It is the same depth as my old Lakewood that I have run with my David Kee TL.
What I did not do was test install the trans into the bell/engine while the engine was on the shop floor. Did not anticipate any problems but I will ALWAYS do that going forward.
Regular bronze non roller bearing.
If I’m less that a half inch from home can I assume I’m not into the bearing at all? The tip of the input is longer than a half inch. Or I should I assume that the input is slightly off centerline and against the face of the bearing?
I will be looking for a real input shaft today. The plastic guide is too short to take measurements off or provide enough leverage if I want to move the disc a little while someone depresses the pedal.
Thanks for all responses.
JB
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I had a similar issue when installing a TKO 600, wouldn't quite go all the way in. My issue was the input bearing retainer tube (the part the throw out bearing rides on) was bottoming out on the hub of the clutch disc. If this combination of parts has been assembled before it is probably not your issue but a remote possibility.
To verify requires pulling the clutch disc and pressure plate back out as there is no way to see it bottoming out when it is assembled. If the transmission now slides right in, back the transmission up just enough to slip the clutch disc on the input shaft (without the pressure plate) and then see if it slides all the way in. If it doesn't you should be able to see the tube contacting the clutch disc hub.
As I said earlier this is probably not your issue, but.....
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Yep, they can be rough sometimes. The TKO in my Merc is always a bear to get to pop in, usually I do the trick with using some studs in the bellhousing to help align the trans. What I've found is that the holes in the bell are skewed just enough that using the pins in the Quicktime bell will not let the transmission bolt up, have to put it in "freehand".
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Response to The Real McCoy: I will check via careful measuring of collar depth to trans face to hub face. This combo has not been assembled previously. The disc is a ceramic/ ceramic paired with an older McCleod cover plate. I understand your test recommendations but I don’t want to have to pull that shit apart to find out!
Thanks for contributing,
JB
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JB, I get the part about not wanting to do a complete disassembly to see if this is a factor. I also agree because your dealing with about 3/8" (.375) you should be able to make some measurements and determine if this is a factor.
My deal was a bit different, I don't remember the exact dimension but seems it was about a 1/16". When installing the transmission the case actually "clunked" up against the bell housing. I was fortunate to notice it didn't feel right when tightening up the transmission mount bolts. I was within a whisker of total disaster, either snapping an ear of the transmission body or tearing up the engine thrust bearing upon start up.
Hope you get it resolved quickly and easily.
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Is it a small block top loader? Will not go all the way in on FE unless you modify/shorten pilot shaft. Joe-JDC
Didn't see a response to this, did you miss it? Check the ID tag on your trans to verify that it is a big-block or small block trans. Small-block input is longer, and causes that exact problem, won't go in all the way
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Push the tail up and down they always hang low in back bolts with the head cut off works good as some one said i cut slots in mine so i can take them out with a screw driver. When i was a young buck i put the tl on my chest and pushed it up and in used my legs to help push they went in easy that way.
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Trans is a big block unit, ran it previously but not with this bell and clutch. Picked up a Model A input shaft from the old Ford guy across the river this afternoon. Going to check the disc orientation and will report back.
Thanks all!
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If you want to measure the pilot length just to make sure my 65 original Galaxie pilot measures 0.785" long
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I checked the centering of the disc by measuring off the Model A input shaft at 3,6,9 and 12 o’clock positions at the bell mouth and it is centered. Was kinda hoping I would find the disc was off center. Checked the length of input collar vs distance to disc hub face and there is at least a half inch gap there.
Measured input shaft length, ( minus tip) vs depth to face of pilot and subtracting gap from trans face to bell face and the math seems to show that the tip of input is right at opening of pilot.
Only thing to do now is hump the prick back in there and hope for different results. ( isn’t that one of the definitions of lunacy)?
JB
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Mind saved! Well for the time being anyways.
Trans was put into position with guide pins on bottom mounting holes until input shaft was through disc. Guide pins removed after two bolts started very slightly up top. Trans would not just slap right up to bell so lower bolts were loosely installed and all bolts slowly tightened while checking evenness of distance between trans face and bell opening. After a bolt was slightly tightened, the remaining would be finger tight and brought up to match the others. Weight was taken off the mounting ears by holding up trans tailshaft housing slightly. No significant force was required to get trans face flush to bellhousing.
So easy, right? If only, sheesh.
Thanks for all tips,
JB
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You got enough advice from everyone so there was nothing I could add to the mix other than what Larry said. I usually do this task myself and a few times I swore there was something wrong, 3 AM in the morning with gear oil running down your arm on your back and your face a few inches from the floor pan - it’s a character builder :)
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3 AM in the morning with gear oil running down your arm on your back and your face a few inches from the floor pan - it’s a character builder :)
It's also a vocabulary builder, inventing words that have never been spoken before..lol
I've had to draw them up before by using the bolts, but it was always due to the fit between the bearing retainer and the bellhousing opening. If it wasn't due to that, I'd be concerned that something else wasn't right. Besides the retainer to bell fitment, there should be nothing that interferes with the trans sliding into place....maybe not always easily, but it should slide up by hand.
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I use 2 long 7/16 bolts that I cut the heads off and squared the ends.I use them for studs to line it up and support the weight.
I too have struggled doing it but is sounds like something is not quite right here...
When I wrestled with the stick trans, this was I did to make it real easy under the car flat on my back LOL. Still use that trick for many things.
Lay a straight edge across the back of the bell and measure from that to the face of the pilot. Measure the input shaft spline to trans bolt face. Similar to what I always do before ever trying to mount a converter in a trans so I know for sure when it's seated.
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Doug, I’m gonna blame a slight interference fit on the pilot bushing. I will at least cycle the clutch a few times before it goes all the way back together and hope that nothing is binding.
I sent you a text about the car in the other lane at the Beaver awhile back. Looking for some info before I put that run up on YouTube.
JB
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I ran into the throwout bearing collar hitting the disc hub once. An aftermarket big spline disc made from a truck one that used a very thick hub with about 2" of spline. Because it was not something i'd ever encountered I tried many times to get the tranny bolted up before I put grease on the end of the collar and saw it left a print on the disc.
I ground 1/2" off the hub with an angle grinder.
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I sent you a text about the car in the other lane at the Beaver awhile back. Looking for some info before I put that run up on YouTube.
JB
Dang, got busy and forgot all about it. I'll send you a text.
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Push the tail up and down they always hang low in back bolts with the head cut off works good as some one said i cut slots in mine so i can take them out with a screw driver. When i was a young buck i put the tl on my chest and pushed it up and in used my legs to help push they went in easy that way.
Yea same here, when I was young I would drag my TL under the car roll it onto my chest and bench press it up and in. When your holding it in your hands you can feel it going in or not.
Trying to jack it into place or pull it down with bolts you lose the feel. Now that I'm older I have no idea how I would do it, maybe that's why I've gone to automatics.
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Same - I put the pins on the top holes to make it go easier. Slots or flats to grab with a wrench.
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I've had someone lightly work the clutch pedal down and up a tad while sliding in a balky tranny. But I also test fitted the disc to the input shaft BEFORE adding the clutch and bell to ensure an easy time of it.