FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: fryedaddy on May 11, 2019, 02:50:11 PM
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wonder if anyone will ever have the time and money to take a good 390-428 engine and try different heads on the same engine ,maybe with a good rpm intake. bbm,survival,trickflow, eldrebrock,cj,gt heads,etc.all out of the box and stock heads.i wonder if this will ever happen?
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I can't imagine anyone crazy enought to do that. I mean, who has a dyno and that kind of time on their hands?
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Jay was crazy enough to do a shit load of intakes. There aren’t nearly enough heads especially if you narrow them down a little. Really an extra 20 volts, reuse some 1020 headgaskets there pretty tough. Maybe a 352 head there best 390 head 2 each of low, medium, and high riser head, a tunnel port head, and then the new crop of heads. Maybe one day somebody will hit lotto and be bored. :) :o 8)
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Not all FE heads will fit all FE engines, nor do all the various heads have comparable combustion chamber volumes. I doubt that anybody with a 352 would cough up the $$$$ for a set of medium, Hi Riser, Tunnel Port of SOHC 427 heads , which have much larger chambers and the valves would hit the cylinders anyhow. And I also doubt anybody with a 427 would be interested in trying a pair of small valve, low port truck heads. The intake test had much more validity, however, again I doubt anybody with a 500 + cube, high compression, solid roller engine would really want to try a SP2P, Offy Dual Port, or 3 or 6 Stromberg intake.
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I can't imagine anyone crazy enought to do that. I mean, who has a dyno and that kind of time on their hands?
I highly doubt he has much free time with his current selection of products/castings that are coming out.
The intake comparo would have been easy compared to a cylinder head test. Too many variables really, intake port style, porting, fitment issues, valve sizes, valve jobs etc etc. Plus intakes are more likely to be swapped around by a home enthusiast. It really wouldn't be much of a thing for a hobbiest to have 3-4 intakes laying around. having 3-4 sets of fully machined heads is less likely. I know as a home tinkerer, I'd happily swap a $200-$400 intake to gain 25hp. I'm far less interested in swapping $1500-$2500 fully machined heads for the same hp gain.
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I'd do a cam comparison long before I'd do a head comparison. The costs involved to do the head comparison would be prohibitive. The costs were bad enough for the intake comparison; I was buying intake gaskets 40 at a time for a while, to say nothing of the gallons and gallons of race gas...
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wonder if anyone will ever have the time and money to take a good 390-428 engine and try different heads on the same engine ,maybe with a good rpm intake. bbm,survival,trickflow, eldrebrock,cj,gt heads,etc.all out of the box and stock heads.i wonder if this will ever happen?
Not a bad idea if a guy had two or three same stroke blocks set up with different popular piston designs. My own heads have ranged from 67 to 74.5 cc that I know of. The three piston design blocks would be there to keep compression in similar window for a closer comparison. Considering the swirl the test would be more about what head and piston combination got along better. Maybe cut the similar combustion chamber heads into groups of 57, 65 and 72 cc's.
If a group of seasoned FE builders compiled there dyno history together you could likely come up with such a book.
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Blue thunder hi riser v pro port CNC v FE power.
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Only a couple/few of us actually own our own operating dyno.
Even for someone with a good relationship with an outside dyno operator would find this to be really, really expensive.
A couple grand for each set of heads will add up pretty quickly.
I have some data - but since I make a head anything I would do would be considered rather biased.
That pretty much leaves Jay - and he already answered.
Still could be a really informative project - - just need that lottery ticket to come in...
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thats why i worded it -do you think anyone would ever have the TIME and MONEY to do this.i really was wondering how the new trick flow compared to the other aftermarket heads in the same category.
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The only way I see something like this working would be a shortblock with enough cubic inches to stress every head, and a piston that is dished to allow a nominal compression ratio of 11:1 with 72 cc heads, and use the same intake manifold on every head. Optimize the intake, whether it is a Performer RPM, or Victor, or (----). Same headers and same carburetor. I have stock CJ heads, stock BBM, stock Edelbrock, stock Survival, and several ported versions of those, as well as BT MR. I would be glad to supply the shortblock in either 468 CI, or 529 CI, and even several sets of ported heads, intakes, multiple carb intakes, etc. JBA headers, Hooker headers. Just need a bit of dyno time and someone who would help and document everything. Another book, anyone? Jay? Good comparison for your new heads! LOL Joe-JDC
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There, Joe throws down a marker...He has the parts, Who has the dyno time? I am sure we could get volunteers to do the wrenching required.. And donations for fuel and gaskets. I am in...
Jay It would be a nice companion book to the intake comparo.. I can see a 3 volume boxed set with a cam comparo added.. 59.95 on Amazon
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if this ever happens i want to buy the first signed copy for getting this crazy idea started
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There, Joe throws down a marker...He has the parts, Who has the dyno time? I am sure we could get volunteers to do the wrenching required.. And donations for fuel and gaskets. I am in...
Jay It would be a nice companion book to the intake comparo.. I can see a 3 volume boxed set with a cam comparo added.. 59.95 on Amazon
LOL! $99.95, Royce ;D ;D Joe, thanks for offering up the parts, I'll give that some serious consideration - AFTER I'm in production with my cylinder head package. Of course, then some people will accuse me of being biased ::)
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That's another reason why this forum is so awesome. You can cruise through the Dyno section and see lots of different combos, and the results. There is a wealth of info in there for anyone willing to take the time and cruise through it. A person can look up 390, 428 and 427 builds from mild to wild. A great place to go to when considering your next build.
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I think there are so many iterations that it still isn't doable. There would have to be categories, or classes of heads, based on PRICE, and what the heads will bolt up to. The best flowing and/or best working stuff is not going to bolt up to a store bought gasket......intake or exhaust.
I have some ports that physically fit into a "medium riser" Edelbrock casting, that require quite a but of manifold work. You couldn't test those with one manifold. The FE is unique, in that a third or so of the head is trapped in the manifold, so testing heads at the higher end would mean testing head-manifold combos.
I think it is possible to test some heads, similar in price, similar in valve location, and milled to the same chamber volume, on one shortblock, with one cam. I think that info would only be useful for the person who wants to build a fairly common, high performance, street engine.......the "which head do I buy" guy. Past that, testing "ported" heads.....I love that term......that are all ported by the same human, won't give absolute answers because everyone doesn't rub on them the same way.
In terms of the four or five "$2500 to $3000" per pair heads that are out there, that bolt on basically as Medium Risers...... they would either need to all be prepped(not ported) by the same human, OR they would need to be tested in the "as delivered" complete head form from the various manufacturers who sell them as complete heads.
Five shops can take a bare pair of head castings, finish them ready to run, and one of those five will flow more. One of those five will make more power. One of those five will turn the fastest times. IT MAY NOT BE ONE PAIR THAT DOES ALL THREE.
What is generally the best offering for a streetable engine in a similar price range? This can be answered fairly easily.
What is the best head? This is best answered by a "narrow the search" pop up!
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Well, if someone has a head they wanted to compare, and was willing to supply it for testing, then that would just add to the information available. I have my own Pro Port heads here, also, as well as CNC'd Edelbrocks, Victor, Victor Dominator, RPM, Performer 390, Streetmaster, Street Dominator, PI, 8V MR, 8V LR, 8V TW, 8V BBM, 390 HP, P-O-S. I haven't invested in the Trick Flow as yet, simply because I don't really have a need for those or anyone asking for them. I would add a pair to my inventory with an intake for this kind of dyno comparison, though. I do think one source for all valve jobs and all port work would be the only way to compare FE to FE in a back to back type of documentation that was valid. Joe-JDC
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Blair has a point this could get bogged down into something that looked like a SBC head shootout with so many combinations.. I think what most guys would like to know are how the 4 aluminum heads that are on the market perform on an engine that probably fits what 80% of the builds are aimed at, hot street, street/strip builds on pump gas.
If one narrowed up the selection of combinations a bit, a meaningful amount of data could be gained without wearing out a dyno. I am gonna throw out my thoughts here, feel free to take aim..
I am guessing the most popular builds would include .30 or .60 over 390 stock stroke, stock stroke 428, 445 390 based stroker, and maybe a 4.25 bore 427. Testing on one of these short blocks should produce results that would apply to the others. I would look for trends rather than absolute numbers.
The big strokers and high compression big cam motors are probably not what the average enthusiast builds. Those motors are usually built by specialists who have their own favorite combinations.
If you specified a hydraulic roller of about 240 duration 10.5 compression that would cover a lot of what guys are building.
For heads I would say as cast, a good valve job, maybe just a light clean up under the seats. Valve size constant, Compression should be equalized as close as possible but a few 10ths are probably not going to invalidate results. Pick a known street friendly good performing manifold, a good carb and have at it.
I think most guys are interested in comparing Edelbrock,Trick flow, BBM, and FElony
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My thought is aligned with Royce, a 235-240* hydro roller 445, running through Ebrock, Felony, BBM, TFS. I’d think having them all done with valve job and bowl blend would equalize the results. It’s middle of the road enough that milder combos and more serious engines could see trends while the middle of the market would get info they were looking for. My guess is unless a 390 was pretty wicked, the numbers wouldn’t vary too much.
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I think most guys here that are inclined to run aftermarket cylinder heads already have at least some Edelbrock heads.
The difference between intake testing and cylinder head testing is that if I see a 50 horsepower increase from a $1000 intake manifold...I might take the plunge.
If I invested $1500 in some Edelbrock heads and another $1000 in CNC porting, I'm sticking with what I have even if another cylinder head makes 50 more horsepower. Just say'n.
Nobody's say'n it outright, but the TFS deal can't be touched at $1900 retail. OK, add a couple hundred for stand milling and you're still more than a grand ahead of the other heads that flow in the same neighborhood. Even so, I'm not biting cuz I've already got some 300cfm aftermarket FE heads.
All this said, I have a set of CNC ported Carroll Shelby heads that I'll gladly contribute for comparison. Let me know.
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Me thinks Royce kinda nailed this....
Now we need to start crowfunding and find the right victim to do this(Jay seems busy).
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If this gets off the ground, I'd contribute to the funding.
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This is a cool idea, but in my opinion it needs to be very limited in scope, for reasons already mentioned. It can't be like The Great FE Intake Comparo where dozens and dozens of intake manifolds were tested. It is just not practical.
Maybe 5 or so aftermarket heads with no porting?
JMO,
paulie
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And then a piston comparo that would lead to piston envy debate.
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Steve I always go with a popup piston to compliment the long stroke
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In thinking a little more about this, I think the decision most guys are trying to make involves one of the aluminum heads vs what they have in cast iron
The test would need a production head to compare. I would suggest one of the better high production castings like a G or R. To get one of those up to snuff they would need guides ,seats, new valves and springs etc.. A guy would want to upgrade to CJ valves. When done lets say he has 1 k in them. The thought process probably goes like this 1K is a lot of money in stock iron heads. How much more $ to go aluminum and how much do I gain. Which head is the best choice.
Factors would be cost, availability, performance, and ease of use with existing parts/ special operations or additional parts needed
So we have 5 heads, the 4 aluminum plus an upgraded cast iron head .. That would give a good base of knowledge for a run of the mill enthusiast to make an informed decision.
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Didn't the dualling 390's touch on this a little. Iron head vs the BBM head?
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Would like to point out couple of things. Jay went through a bunch of work to test the intakes, and then to get the info out there and recoup some of the money he wrote a book. But I've talked to several folks on this forum who have yet to order Jay's book. The book is a bargain for the info it contains.
Same thing when building the 62-65 Fairlanes. Talked to a bunch of people building one, but they don't belong to the Fairlane Club of America which is only $35 yearly.
???
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The dualling 390's and other tests pretty much tell you all one needs to know. Barry and Brent, and Blair, have certainly been kind enough in sharing data from their tests, as have others. IMO most people look for a combination that reflects their personal desired result. ( And they can afford!) Thankfully that information is available on this site.
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Steve I always go with a popup piston to compliment the long stroke
The machinist Mohel said I would have better flame travel with his work.
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Well I took a crack at the FE Head Comparo with the Gonkulator.
I chose 2 engines. Both are pretty well wrung out on the Gonkulator-vs-Dyno scale so I trust them.
Of course, swapping heads does introduce Gonkulator uncertainty, but most of these heads have some dyno data support too.
And the comparison is free!
1. Bone stock 428CJ
2. 492 Stroker from Jay’s TGFEIC series with port matched Vic Dominator intake.
These cover the range from 380hp to 650hp so you can see the effect of swapping heads on the range of engines most of us would build.
I’ll compare the common iron heads, the Edelbrock, and a modern average called the Goodhead:
• C4AE-G et al stock (C1AE-A, B9AE-B, C6AE-R similar) 352, 390, 390PI, 390GT, etc. 1959-1966
• C4AE-G with 2.09 and 1.66 and ported exhaust roof, aka “poor mans CJ” heads (C6AE-R similar)
• C8AE-H stock, D2TE-AA similar, 390GT, 410, 7-Litre, 390IP, trucks, etc. 1968-1976
• C8OE-N stock 428CJ 1968-1970
• And the “ultimate” head of not so long ago, the box-stock Edelbrock. I’m using the more recent 21st century version, though the late 1990s heads showed better flow numbers.
• Finally, I lump together 6 sets of modern good heads. Think of Dr Goodhead from James Bond’s Moonraker.
Goodhead is the 6-way average of:
• TFS head
• BBM head
• Survival head
• Survival CNC head
• Edelbrock Stage 3J (a little better than Stage 3, this was Jay’s prep for the TGFEIC 492 stroker)
• Blair’s Pro Port
Since these 6 heads are all pretty doggone good but are all being sold by some of the great vendors that now support the FE, I didn’t want to get into a pissing contest between them as it could be so easily misleading. So I’m just averaging all 6 and calling that average Dr Goodhead. Fair enough? ;)
In each case, for brevity (as if!) I’ll just list
• Peak Torque
• Peak Horsepower
• Ponies, the metric I like, which is the average of the two. I find Ponies correlates quite well with performance of a street car and wide gear spreads of the old 3 and 4 speeds we used to be stuck with back in the day.
• Delta Ponies vs the Base Case 428CJ iron C8OE-N heads
Stock 428CJ engine including iron exhaust:
Torq Power Ponies Delta
459 346 398 -27 C8AE-H stock
458 360 406 -19 C4AE-G stock
472 377 422 -3 C4AE-G 2.09 x 1.66 & port roof “poor mans CJ”
476 380 425 xxx C8OE-N 428cj BASE CASE stock 428CJ as FoMoCo built them
484 387 433 +8 Edelbrock 21st century heads. At least they’re lighter.
512 421 464 +39 Dr Goodhead, average of 6 modern heads
Jay’s TGFEIC 492 stroker, port matched Vic Dominator
Torq Power Ponies Delta
516 504 510 -42 C8AE-H stock
521 522 521 -31 C4AE-G stock
538 563 550 -2 C4AE-G 2.09 x 1.66 & port roof “poor mans CJ”
542 563 552 xxx C8OE-N 428cj BASE CASE
552 594 572 +20 Edelbrock 21st century heads. Better but see below.
585 641 612 +60 Dr Goodhead, average of 6 modern heads
My conclusion is, if you have a good set of C4AE-G etc (or even C8AE-H) and can modify them cheap, and they don’t need serious machine shop money, a set of Poor Mans CJ heads is a good goal. Otherwise jump up to the 1990s-era Edelbrocks (at least).
If you have a decent set of 428CJ heads, don’t bother with the old-school Edelbrocks bos stock. Not much gain.
The real gains show up with any of the Dr Goodhead selections (that makes it easy to remember doesn’t it?)
This is a 9% gain in Ponies on a “mild” 380hp build, and an 11% gain on a 650hp build, vs 428CJ iron which is pretty good already.
A stroker kit picked up about 8% Ponies on a 428CJ level build, which, cost wise, is about in line with the Dr Goodhead average cylinder head gains.
Sure, cams or compression will add Ponies cheaper, but they can make the engine impractical too. Stroker kits or Heads are a good comparison because they don’t really affect streetability. Of course the tradeoff is they cost more than cams or compression or NOSS.
I hope this helps a little, at least food for thought.
The other problem with a dyno head comparo is, as mentioned, compression ratio and/or piston shape would change with each head swap. In the Gonkulator, all that stuff “magically” stays constant. Gonkulator gaskets can also be re-used multiple times – I don’t think I’ve ever changed gaskets in the Gonkulator, except for when Microsoft does an “automatic Windows 10 update”. Ugh.
For fun, I tried a few more different cylinder heads on the TGFEIC 492 stroker engine.
In the Gonkulator, with a few iffy assumptions such as imagining that the valves will somehow fit down the bore, and more trivial issues like bolt pattern and gasket seal, we can try heads from different engine families onto the FE. Here are a couple heads from the Lima Ford and the Rat Chevy, to compare to the FE offerings.
Torq Power Ponies Gain
560 557 558 +6 429SCJ Lima iron, very little gain vs 428CJ iron because exhausts are so bad. >:(
618 684 650 +98 Kaase P-51 Lima heads. Box-stock Lima heads have come a long way since 1970.
568 617 592 +40 L72 Rat iron vintage 1966. It does help when the exhaust can get out. ;D
620 677 648 +96 AFR305 Rat, among the best of newer box-stock Rat heads.
558 611 584 +32 FE HiRiser vintage 1964. The HiRiser was a good competitor to the Rat (and held together better).
Why was the 427 HiRiser head so good, and the 429SCJ head, 6 years later, so bad? Did Ford forget everything? >:(
Notice I refuse to refer to the Lima as the “385 Series”. That name is about as silly as when FoMoCo was using those GM-style 5750062 part numbers back in 1959. Does anybody talk about the “335 Series” ever? What was THAT going to be, anyway?
Notice also that the Lima vs Rat battle looks about equal these days, except that the factory iron Lima block can be built to a lot more inches than the little Rat motor. If only I’d had todays Lima heads back in the disco era! 8)
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Thank you for the work WerbyFord I didn't know that C4AE-G's with CJ valves were really that close to C8OE heads.
Now I understand the Lima. I always thought you just liked the name of the plant.
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That got sorted out.But werby next time gather all our pennies before you crank up your virtual dyno ;D
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Thanks, Werby!
Very informative. I feel like you get 99% of the data for 1% of the cost. I am not by any means discounting your time and effort. In fact, your time and effort are what make it work.
paulie
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Thank you for the work WerbyFord I didn't know that C4AE-G's with CJ valves were really that close to C8OE heads.
Now I understand the Lima. I always thought you just liked the name of the plant.
That's about how mine turned out anyway- you could see the extra G's pulling on the GTECH. That plus a composite of others' dyno tests. It's always subjective, because you cant just plop the valves in there, it's also how well you blend the bowls (I'm pretty amateur but did a 5-angle bowl) and I did as much as I could to the exhaust port roof. If you did a 5-angle job and exhaust roof to the C8OE-N head you'd probably pick up some ponies too, but then their value would be lower, not "as cast" any more.
The Gonkulator isn't as accurate as a dyno series, but as stated, doing this apples-to-apples on the dyno would be costly in dollars and time. Especially trying to bolt those "385 Series" (aka Lima) and "Mark IV Large Block" (aka Rat) heads to the FE block.
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Great and detailed analysis Werby!
Way O/T but I was amazed by your AFR Rat heads and the hp gain. On our circa 1974 431 C.I.D. Unit Stock B, single 4-bbl, BBC '69 Camaro (unported 'stock' heads as required, open chamber steelies) at 3420 lbs, 3595 lbs. with me in it, our best of 10.90 at 128 MPH would have been easy 10.60's, maybe even high 10.50's at 129-130. Amazing progress.
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Don't let Bill think you can adapt BBChev heads or we will never hear the end of it :)
Besides what intake would we use, or turn the Chev one backwards so the distributor hole lines up and just use a really long rad hose?
Interesting how much gain or loss there is. Nice info.
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I think there needs to be a four volume set. Jay could build four engines that are identical except for the stroke. One engine would be a 390 destroked using a 332 crank. Next a standard 390. Then a 390 with a 428 crank so 410 cubic inches. Finally, a 445 built using a Survival stroker kit. It would show exactly why bigger is always better LOL.
I would donate for that volume!
There, Joe throws down a marker...He has the parts, Who has the dyno time? I am sure we could get volunteers to do the wrenching required.. And donations for fuel and gaskets. I am in...
Jay It would be a nice companion book to the intake comparo.. I can see a 3 volume boxed set with a cam comparo added.. 59.95 on Amazon