FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: turbohunter on January 04, 2019, 12:11:30 PM
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Hi guys
I’ve got a C scratch block that has two pinholes mid way in number 6. To water between 6 and 7.
I also have a station wagon that has a 390 instead of the 428 that’s supposed to be in it.
If I were to sleeve the block would I be asking for trouble? It would be a daily driver low rpm, low compression deal.
Sleeve all 8, sleeve one?
Flange sleeves?
Forget it and find a good block?
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Sleeve the hole that needs it with a thin-wall sleeve and call it a day. Not uncommon at all when working on 50 year old stuff.
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My wagon has had a sleeve since 2002 in an NOS 428 block. Ate a small screw and cracked #4. Been beating it to pieces for 16yrs now.
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I wouldn't put a thin wall sleeve in a tri-cycle. A thin wall sleeve won't stay round in the bore behind it. If it doesn't leak, a "pin" hole won't hurt anything. If it does leak, I would inspect the entire water jacket. If it leaks, and your casting is not rusty inside the water jacket, then your problem most likely came from rust in the bore, from the bore-side of the casting. That said, if the casting is otherwise sound, a sleeve isn't a terrible idea. I know the world has stepped the bottom and pressed sleeves in for years, but I prefer a flanged sleeve, no bottom step, and fairly light press. Grind prep, clean, and JB Weld the hole before boring for the sleeve. Then light press on a flanged sleeve. For the street, at least .075 wall thickness at finish size. You don't want to bore into water, but a flanged sleeve, light press, and thick-wall of the sleeve itself is better. Also using ductile material is better. I'm not a fan of sleeving all 8 in an OE block unless you are sleeving it smaller. Fixing one cylinder, or even two, the right way is a good plan. Sleeving more than two with a flanged ductile iron sleeve starts costing more than a 352-390 block is worth. Just giving my opinion........
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When a lot of sleeves are 3/32" to 1/8" wall thickness, I would consider a .075" sleeve to be thin.
In the Cleveland world, you have no choice but to go thin, as a standard bore cylinder wall thickness can be under .100". I've had no issues with doing them that way.
Ain't never sleeved a tricycle though.
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Of course nobody wants a block with a sleeve, even though every original 427 I've had has had at least 1, if not 2, sleeves in it. Never had an issue with any of them, but they weren't bored to water either, and they weren't crusty/rusty inside the water jacket. And a sleeved 390 will arguably be stronger than a sleeved 427 block. I'd sleeve the one and not give it a second thought.
I wouldn't sleeve a tricycle either. They're front wheel drive, and nobody who wants to keep their manhood intact would build a front wheel drive with an FE ;D
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Marc,
You are not really clear - is it a 428 block? Is it a hole all the way through? I have a couple of little pinholes in my 390/445 that were not all the way through, boring it out to 4.08 didn't clean them up, and I just went with it and it is fine without a sleeve.
I would not have done so had it been a 428.
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Sorry, when I came back in and read your answers I realized I didn’t give all the information needed.
I’ve fixed it now.
And thank you all for your insights.
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Sleeve it and move on. Nothing wrong with a sleeve in a street motor, as long as it was done properly. I have a flathead with all 8 holes sleeved. Of course, flatheads start with a whole bunch more cylinder wall (nobody ever talks about regularly boring a FE by 3/16"!) but the point is still valid.
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i bought a 390 of a guy who joined the army and was leaving to go over seas.i got it for cheap,all i had to do was pay off the machine shop where it was at.found out it had 8 sleeves in it.i ran it for 25+ years with no issues.that is the only engine i had with sleeves so its hard for me to throw off on them with my one experience.
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Could you put a thick sleeve in with a smaller resultant bore than the rest of the cylinders? Would need a smaller diameter replacement piston for that one bore. Take that cylinder down to 390 bore?
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Could you put a thick sleeve in with a smaller resultant bore than the rest of the cylinders? Would need a smaller diameter replacement piston for that one bore. Take that cylinder down to 390 bore?
That’s the piston you pull for the tech. guy when you’re in for tear down. LOL
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Most quality sleeves are centrifugal cast ductile iron. That material is better than the original block material. A .090 wall sleeve is stronger than a .090 wall block cylinder would be. Sleeve it and run it.
I will agree on the multiple sleeves on OEM 427 blocks. We have done them when instructed to under duress, but the risk of cracking between the bores on the deck is pretty high, and that is darn near impossible to repair. Sleeve those worn out 427 blocks to a 428 bore and you can save it for another day.
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Marc, I've had a sleeve in #5 of my 428CJ block since 1982. It survived years and years in my 68 Shelby, then for a couple more in my 69 Mach 1. It is the block used for the two 428CJ dyno mules in my book. It is now in my 68 Mustang fastback. I'll bet I've got close to 100K miles on that block with the sleeve in it, and have never had a problem.
My sleeve was also put in after boring into the water jacket, and with a step at the bottom of the bore. The machinist who did it told me to put a product called Silver Seal into the radiator when I first got the engine running again, in case the joint seeped a little. Again, never have had a problem.
I'm not sure how thick the sleeve was in the block, but since it was done in 1982 and boring for the sleeve broke into the water jacket, I don't think it was a thinwall sleeve of any sort. Bore on the engine is currently 4.17".
The only problem I've ever seen with a sleeve is if two adjacent bores are sleeved. This can lead to cracks at the deck between the two sleeved bores. As long as you don't have to sleeve both 6 and 7, you should have no issues.
I'd sleeve that thing in a heartbeat - Jay
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I recently had issue with coolant in the oil on my 1967 Shelby. It has 176 miles on it. After I completed it, it set in storage for over a year. I used distilled water at some "experts" recommendation. Don't do it! There was an incredible amount of rust that never was an issue in years of sitting with regular tap water and coolant.
Likely that caused much of the corrosion to develop. I wound up with pin holes in #6 on a block that sonic checked between .195-.220 wall thickness.
I didn't want to run a sleeved block, but an A scratch with the right date codes can be more expensive and difficult to locate than thought. The new sonic looked good except a small area in #6. I went with the sleeve. It was done so well It is hard to tell. I wouldn't worry about a sleeve if you have a competent machinist.
-Keith
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Thanks guys.
Keith I’m glad you jumped in. This block was sonic’d, magged and pressure checked. The water jackets were the cleanest I’d ever seen.
It was the basis for my mustang and finally after getting it together we had it on the dyno and had warmed it up and broken it in. It sounded great. On the second low rpm pull the dyno operator noticed something different. The plan was to do a couple short pulls and adjust the valves. So valve covers came off and there was water in the oil.
I was ready to go ballistic on the shop that did the check, but after talking to a a few guys that should know, they said this happens every once in a while with 50 year old stuff. I understand that.
So to finish the story, I had recently bought a beautiful cross bolted block from forum member Mike 7570, who was going to use it for a 428 race car. He got the block from Sol Stewart. Even though it’s been magged and sonic’d I’m having it redone (cause I’m freaking). The engine will be 428 ci.
I’ve got to buy a new set of pistons but the guys are helping me out with keeping the prices down on machine work and such as I’ve been bent over enough already.
To wrap it up, “stuff” happens.
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I had the engine ran in on the dyno as well. Reasons two fold. 1. If it had an issue I didn't want to take it back out of a car with a 16,000 paint job. Secondly, I am running a flat tappet with double springs. So it was ran in without the inner spring and then ran in with both.
I thought I had an intake issue and after I bought a bore scope I found the leak. I was furious being I had been so careful and didn't cut any corners.
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Just FWIW, Carl Holbrook was known to bore the cylinders completely out of FE blocks and then put in steel sleeves. He had the sleeves furnace-brazed in place and then went through the whole block and re-machined everything. He had a bunch of tricks up his sleeve. ;)
KS
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Just FWIW, Carl Holbrook was known to bore the cylinders completely out of FE blocks and then put in steel sleeves. He had the sleeves furnace-brazed in place and then went through the whole block and re-machined everything. He had a bunch of tricks up his sleeve. ;)
KS
He was s master at fixing iron heads as well.
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Just FWIW, Carl Holbrook was known to bore the cylinders completely out of FE blocks and then put in steel sleeves. He had the sleeves furnace-brazed in place and then went through the whole block and re-machined everything. He had a bunch of tricks up his sleeve. ;)
KS
I remember Carl mentioning once that he did that to brand new Cobra Jet blocks :o :o
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Thanks guys.
Keith I’m glad you jumped in. This block was sonic’d, magged and pressure checked. The water jackets were the cleanest I’d ever seen.
It was the basis for my mustang and finally after getting it together we had it on the dyno and had warmed it up and broken it in. It sounded great. On the second low rpm pull the dyno operator noticed something different. The plan was to do a couple short pulls and adjust the valves. So valve covers came off and there was water in the oil.
I was ready to go ballistic on the shop that did the check, but after talking to a a few guys that should know, they said this happens every once in a while with 50 year old stuff. I understand that.
So to finish the story, I had recently bought a beautiful cross bolted block from forum member Mike 7570, who was going to use it for a 428 race car. He got the block from Sol Stewart. Even though it’s been magged and sonic’d I’m having it redone (cause I’m freaking). The engine will be 428 ci.
I’ve got to buy a new set of pistons but the guys are helping me out with keeping the prices down on machine work and such as I’ve been bent over enough already.
To wrap it up, “stuff” happens.
Cross my fingers everything works out great with the cross bolted block. I never had a chance to use it.
Mike
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I’m sure it’ll be fine Mike.
The engine gods can’t be that callous. Can they?
I’ve started trying to find Sol on the other forum through Anthony but nothing yet.
Anyone know if he’s still around?
I’d like to get some info on the block. It’s not familiar to me.
Thought you guys might like to see it. It’s 4.129 as of now. I’m having it honed as little as possible which should be easy ::) as the cylinders are pristine. The date code 3G/C17? No other numbers.
Mike had it sonic checked and there was only one under .120ish place on the whole deal and that was non thrust and low. As I said I’m having everything re done.
And just to keep things straight this is not the block that needs a sleeve. This is the replacement block.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nV1gFTvz/6-E85-A8-EB-3-E18-449-C-B008-8-C4-EAA3-D1-A22.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/g2gTV0MP/391-B991-B-11-D5-4-ACE-A897-82889700-C411.jpg)
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Marc, 3C17 is March 17, 1963. 3G is July.
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Yup, thanks, that I knew Bruce. The reason I included the date is because I’m not familiar with the different ways the blocks were cast back then. This block is a 390 but it has the extra webbing and cross bolt bosses and the bores are plenty thick. I’ve started researching but thought one or two of us may have some knowledge of these blocks.
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My 64 PI engine have a block like that. Its not machined for
crossbolts but the casting and extra webbing is there
I dont remember the casting date but i think the car was
made in september so a couple of months before that i supose
Casting NR is C4AE-A, it have a P stamped on the machined surface
for the timing chain cover, bottom right corner. Not drilled for hyd, lifters
Mine at 4.11 if i go 4.13 one spot in one cyl would go Under 0.100
i think it was nr 4 to the rear one inch below deck
I saw one at the shop of the guy that ported my heads also from a 64
I belive Doug have the same block in his truck
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Marc,
Sol Stewart on old forum - login Sol427 signed name Dusty Rhodes