FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: happystang on December 20, 2018, 11:36:32 PM
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Hi everyone,
I'm in need of a starter- I'd like to avoid the cheapo remanfucatured starters from O'reilys, I've have too many of those self destruct on Windsor motors.
Engine is a 428 FE (10.5:1 compression) with a toploader/184 tooth flywheel in a '68 mustang. I'll be using Hooker 6114 HKR Super Comp long tube headers. I've heard there have been fitment issues with these headers and those "clockable" mini starters?
I looked into the stock style Powermaster starters but the summit reviews state that people have issues with the nose of the starter hitting the flywheel.
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i have been through a lot of starters running hooker headers on my 390s and 428s.i have a napa starter on now for the last few years.its been good.ive had autozone-advance starters not even last for just a few starts.the napa starter is rebuilt,may not be the best but its been ok for me,and i noticed it was twice as heavy as the other two mentioned.
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I have a Powermaster stock style starter from summit
when it arrived it was in a opened and taped shut box.
So i thought, yet another time i got someones reject.
but seems to work fine, the only problem is the bolt
for the wire is pointing straight in to the stock shorty
headers so i had to cut it flush with the nut and only
got about 1/4 inch betwen bolt and header
But cranks fast both hot and cold
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I send Powermaster starters with all of my engines.
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https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/10007/10002/-1
For the price these seem to work fine, I have a couple of them in service.
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Are there any new American made starters available? My Tilton Superstarter was made in the USA about 15 years ago. It is still working great. But I don't think Tilton still manufactures here. Any USA made starters available?
paulie
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With the Powermaster starter, twice I've had to slightly clearance the nose housing to keep from hitting the flywheel. Not a big deal, just a few seconds with a die grinder took care of it. I've had pretty good luck with the Powermasters, until I went on Drag Week. When making 200-300 mile trips, it would get heat soaked during a fuel stop and didn't want to engage. I never had that problem on local shorter trips. I switched to the RobbMc mini-starter and never had an issue after that. It's a bit pricey, but a great starter. This on a '69 Mustang with Hooker headers.
I'll try to post a photo of the interference with the Powermaster....if Photobucket will allow me to.
(https://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/cjshaker/IMAG0250.jpg) (https://s43.photobucket.com/user/cjshaker/media/IMAG0250.jpg.html)
As you can see, the interference is relatively minor, and easily fixed. That shot is before I added some clearance with the grinder.
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RobbMc Performance supposedly makes a good starter. I am going to probably go with one his since my
Powermaster only partially engages the flywheel on my set up.
garyv
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I've got 2 RobbMC starters and been happy with them. I couldn't say with 100% certainly that all the parts in his starers are American made, but at least it's a small American business.
Actually I have 3, but one is a 460 so it doesn't count here!
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I have two RobbMC starters ….one on each of my Starliners. Absolutely no problems in ten years use with each of them.
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I wanted to use a robbmc, but they were. It available.
Powermaster ultra has worked flawlessly these three or so years.
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RobbMc says designed and manufactured in the USA.
https://www.robbmcperformance.com/products/fordat_starter.html
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OK, precisely what happens inside when a starter is "heat soaked"?
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OK, precisely what happens inside when a starter is "heat soaked"?
https://www.knowyourparts.com/technical-resources/starting-and-charging/starter-will-not-crank-when-hot-heat-soak/
paulie
edit: oops. wrong link. fixed it.
Here's the part that is relevant, I think.
"This absorbed heat adds resistance to the electrical conductors inside the starter. The additional resistance results in the starter requiring more amperage than it normally does when cool. Once under-hood heat warms the battery, cables, and starter, a “tipping point” is reached concerning the overall amount of resistance a starter can accept (and still function
properly).
The TOTAL effect of all this unwanted resistance is a dramatically reduced current flow, which in turn means the starter is limited in current, and therefore either turns very slowly or not at all. The starter solenoid is equally vulnerable to this condition, and thus may not activate the starter at all."
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So, not an actual internal failure. First thing I'd try is doubling up the positive battery cable.
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I dont even want to say anything but I have the same starter in my car since I got it back on the road in 2011. Stock new starter from USA. And before that I had my rebuilder make me a starter he drew the superman logo on it and it was good from 1986 till I lost it during the restoration of my car from 2008 to 2011. So 2 starters in 32 years although my car sat for 10 of those years. But I did race it from 86 till 96 every weekend. I think what Im trying to say is stock ones work if you get it to run properly and have the timing right. Sometimes at the track on hot days in later rounds I got alittle nervous sometimes but only a handful of times it didnt start.
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So, not an actual internal failure. First thing I'd try is doubling up the positive battery cable.
That doesn't help with heat soak. The resistance is internal, in the starter, as in the windings on the armature. In that case, you could run 2 00 gauge wires and it still wouldn't make a difference.
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So, not an actual internal failure. First thing I'd try is doubling up the positive battery cable.
That doesn't help with heat soak. The resistance is internal, in the starter, as in the windings on the armature. In that case, you could run 2 00 gauge wires and it still wouldn't make a difference.
I'll bet it does work. Cables get hot at battery/solenoid when this happens, cluing that their ability to provide enough current to the starter has been exceeded. Numerous stories of guys stepping up the cable size with good results. Doubling cables better yet. I'll look through YT and see if there's anything there.
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With the Powermaster starter, twice I've had to slightly clearance the nose housing to keep from hitting the flywheel. Not a big deal, just a few seconds with a die grinder took care of it. I've had pretty good luck with the Powermasters, until I went on Drag Week. When making 200-300 mile trips, it would get heat soaked during a fuel stop and didn't want to engage. I never had that problem on local shorter trips. I switched to the RobbMc mini-starter and never had an issue after that. It's a bit pricey, but a great starter. This on a '69 Mustang with Hooker headers.
I'll try to post a photo of the interference with the Powermaster....if Photobucket will allow me to.
(https://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/cjshaker/IMAG0250.jpg) (https://s43.photobucket.com/user/cjshaker/media/IMAG0250.jpg.html)
As you can see, the interference is relatively minor, and easily fixed. That shot is before I added some clearance with the grinder.
Doug, the modification on the starter nose seems very minor- I might end up going with Powermaster unit. The RobbMc mini-starter looks amazing, but it is very expensive (as is everything with FE engines! ::) )
Thank you everyone for the suggestions!
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Where are the Powermaster starters made? Just asking.
paulie
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I think powermaster has its home base in chicago
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I think powermaster has its home base in chicago
But what I am wondering is are they made there in Chicago? Lots of American companies have centers here, but import the products. I have no idea about Powermaster. I was just wondering.
paulie
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Stangman I agree on stock starters.
I have one in my daily driver. Found it in a junkyard and have been using it over a decade.
That said, I cannot remove it without pulling a header, so when it dies, a mini shall take its place.
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I must say i have never had a problem with
a stock starter on a Ford except when they were worn out
Never had a FE Mustang though and there is not often hot around here
Reason i bought a power master was i had no good stock late FE one
But i have had problem with brand new Chevy ministarters on customers cars
they thought they must have a ministarter and bought the cheapest one they
could find because......Hey its so much cheaper to build a Chevy ::) yeaa its
even cheaper if you ride a bicycle ....... :P
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https://www.dragzine.com/features/street-muscle-examines-powermasters-lineup-of-top-quality-starters/
plovett here is your answer
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https://www.dragzine.com/features/street-muscle-examines-powermasters-lineup-of-top-quality-starters/
plovett here is your answer
Cool! Thanks. I will keep them in mind for my next starter.
paulie
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FWIW, I have made my own starter cables from 00 welding cable for at least the last 40 years.
Later-model stock-type starters are a problem when using long '63-'64 manifolds. The best 'fix' I came up with for the contact-lug/manifold interference is to cut the lug short and remove all but one of the copper nuts. Use fairly-thin Teflon sheet for an insulator against the starter case, put the cable-end on and one nut. File the lug flat to the nut. That gives about an eighth-or-so clearance. I'd also wedge a piece of the Teflon sheet in the gap for a final bit of insurance.
KS
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FWIW, I have made my own starter cables from 00 welding cable for at least the last 40 years.
KS
i have been waiting on someone to mention welding cables.i use it at the starter and to the battery in the trunk.its expensive but it helps.
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Man, there was 175ft of very heavy welding cable on my boat.
Safety man flunked it because there was a crack. So we bought new stuff
I had it stashed waiting for a port that was close enough for me to drive home.
Right before that happened a relief engineer that was a real jerk threw it away.
Shame, I was like “battery cables for life!!!” All batteries go to the trunk!”
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I have been using a NAPA 44-9204 Premium Plus starter with my long tube headers for several years - no problems starting my stock 427.
I had a custom cable made from the solenoid to the starter, I think it was single 0 cable, tinned copper, with heat wrap over the section next to the headers. Spins right up, hot or cold.
This is the starter that has the connecting tab coming straight off the back end, not a stud off of the side. No interference issues with the headers.
I think the original application was for a '70's pickup with a 390 but can't seem to find it by application now.
If you do an internet search it will also bring up a Wilson part number.
I have had good luck with the higher-end brand of NAPA stuff when I don't have an original Ford part to take to my rebuilder.
Bill
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I'll bet it does work. Cables get hot at battery/solenoid when this happens, cluing that their ability to provide enough current to the starter has been exceeded. Numerous stories of guys stepping up the cable size with good results. Doubling cables better yet. I'll look through YT and see if there's anything there.
Every car is different, and so is every situation. 95% of my driving is fairly local or mild trips, which usually always has a cool down time when shut off. BUT, take a cramped Mustang engine compartment, drive 250+ miles at highway/interstate speeds, shut it off for 3-4 minutes, on a hot day, and trust that a simple cable change is going to solve your problems.
I've been making my own cables out of welding wire for a long time. I also use soldered battery ends and solder copper lugs on the starter side. I always use 0 or 00 gauge wire. I never had issues using a stock type or Powermaster starter, until Drag Week. So like I said, it depends on your situation and the end use. But you're welcome to follow your intuition, rather than my experience.
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I'll bet it does work. Cables get hot at battery/solenoid when this happens, cluing that their ability to provide enough current to the starter has been exceeded. Numerous stories of guys stepping up the cable size with good results. Doubling cables better yet. I'll look through YT and see if there's anything there.
Every car is different, and so is every situation. 95% of my driving is fairly local or mild trips, which usually always has a cool down time when shut off. BUT, take a cramped Mustang engine compartment, drive 250+ miles at highway/interstate speeds, shut it off for 3-4 minutes, on a hot day, and trust that a simple cable change is going to solve your problems.
I've been making my own cables out of welding wire for a long time. I also use soldered battery ends and solder copper lugs on the starter side. I always use 0 or 00 gauge wire. I never had issues using a stock type or Powermaster starter, until Drag Week. So like I said, it depends on your situation and the end use. But you're welcome to follow your intuition, rather than my experience.
Intuition? You forgot my past career, didn't you?
Never had a heat soak issue, but then I don't tend to drive a headered, carbed vehicle in triple digits here in the desert. This may change in the coming year. I do remember legions of Chevy guys with headers having that problem back in the 70'/80's in Cali. I don't recall what their fix was.
My "intuition" would also point out that, over the years, the CCA rating of batteries has doubled or tripled that of the old cells, but the size of the cables most people are employing really have not increased much. This would certainly negate much of the advantage. I assume you also used the same welding cable to make a battery-to-block ground. What goes around, comes around. 8)
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Here's an article some people may find useful, written by some wannabe with, like, 5 whole posts here.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/easy-fix-avoid-1958-1964-big-block-ford-starter-failure/
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I got the Robb MC with a trunion support, he gets my vote! I loved it. Uses a Ford V10 starter motor as the base for it too!
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I do remember legions of Chevy guys with headers having that problem back in the 70'/80's in Cali. I don't recall what their fix was.
I believe it was using a Ford part. Pretty common for Chevys to have heat soak problems with the starter solenoid mounted directly on the starter. Install a Ford remote mount solenoid and jumper the original solenoid and problem solved.....
I haven't had any issues with a factory starter. Even on our racer with a 13.5:1 roller. I'm planning on using the same starter on my new motor with 13:1. Street/strip, so I'll see how it holds up. On cables, ALWAYS get as fine stranded cable as you can. More strands=more better. Look into the stereo cables. Nice fine strand and very flexible too. You can pick it up cheaper than welding cable, too. That's what I'm putting on mine now. Soldered ends as well.
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I'm curious about using cable with finer strands. Why does that work better? As a very electrically-challenged person I have no clue. Why do more strands mean less resistance?
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On cables, ALWAYS get as fine stranded cable as you can. More strands=more better. Look into the stereo cables. Nice fine strand and very flexible too. You can pick it up cheaper than welding cable, too. That's what I'm putting on mine now. Soldered ends as well.
Contrary to popular belief, stranded cable of the same gauge is not capable of carrying more current or amperage. They are also larger in size than a solid wire of the same gauge, while carrying the same amperage rating. The upside to stranded is the flexibility and resistance to fatigue from movement. So actually, you just want a stranded cable of the proper size, with no finer strands than what is required for movement. Welding cable has much finer strands than typical automotive wire and is pretty much overkill as it is. Something you have to watch out for on welding cable is that it's coating isn't as heat resistant as automotive cable, so care has to be taken when routing, to stay away from any major heat sources. It's also less cut resistant, so passing through any bulkhead or panel requires good protection.
Edit: I actually need to change what I said after refreshening my memory. DC does in fact gain some from using stranded wire over solid, but I don't think you need to go overboard because super fine strands present their own problem, like more capillary action for corrosion issues etc.
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I'm curious about using cable with finer strands. Why does that work better? As a very electrically-challenged person I have no clue. Why do more strands mean less resistance?
The theory I remember from apprenticeship school is the electricity does not travel through the middle of the wire, but on the outside edge of it. So the more strands will provide more area for the electricity in a given wire size.
Something else to think about is the type of wire insulation, there are many different applications. If the wire insulation will not handle the heat of its environment, then you're still not getting the full potential of the battery cranking amps to the starter. A quick Google search describes "welding cable" insulation types as durable and tough. Not all will hold up to petroleum based products. The one heat rating I found was from a Lincoln Welder for 30* Celsius, about 86* F.
From the battery to the solenoid and solenoid to the starter, I ran a #2 type GXL SGX wire rated for 50 Volts and 125* C, about 250* F. Its suitable for automotive applications and meets some of Ford and Chrysler specifications, according the Wire Barn website.
Knock on wood, no starting issues yet.
Edit, I will add that the insulation is the driving force in how a wire should be used. One aspect is heat. The more amps you push through a wire, the more heat that gets generated. The more heat resistant an insulation, the greater the capacity it can carry for a given size.
Corrected the insulation type for cables
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I could be wrong, I have been many times before. That's just my basic understanding of it. I'm no electrical engineer or anything. The other things I gather is that the finer strands can dissipate heat better in prolonged/higher current situations. The flexibility is a bonus. The coarse is also a little more prone to breakage from being stiffer and more susceptible to vibration.
Edit: Here is a comparison between the stereo cable and a typical parts store cable of the same size. The strands on the left do not have any gaps between them, just high and low spots that look like it. It appears to me, that given the same gauge rating, the left has much more available conductor within the same rated size. One of the reasons I wanted to use it, and I got it for free. :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0w8PrR9/20181223-130233.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8JbxCVJH)
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BUT, take a cramped Mustang engine compartment, drive 250+ miles at highway/interstate speeds, shut it off for 3-4 minutes, on a hot day, and trust that a simple cable change is going to solve your problems.
For as cheap as it would be to try, don't you owe it to yourself to try? Afraid I'm right?
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I bought a Wilson starter from NAPA on someones advice pertaining to clearance of the cast long tube headers. The terminal comes off the rear plate of the starter and allows a better routing of the cable up to the front of the engine. Before this starter I used a set of Mr Gasket header gaskets on the passenger side to gain a little more clearance from the Battery post to header.
The part number for the Wilson starter is 91-02-5821. I think it also fits a 429- 351C.
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BUT, take a cramped Mustang engine compartment, drive 250+ miles at highway/interstate speeds, shut it off for 3-4 minutes, on a hot day, and trust that a simple cable change is going to solve your problems.
For as cheap as it would be to try, don't you owe it to yourself to try? Afraid I'm right?
I have. Hence the word "experience".
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I could be wrong, I have been many times before. That's just my basic understanding of it. I'm no electrical engineer or anything. The other things I gather is that the finer strands can dissipate heat better in prolonged/higher current situations. The flexibility is a bonus. The coarse is also a little more prone to breakage from being stiffer and more susceptible to vibration.
Edit: Here is a comparison between the stereo cable and a typical parts store cable of the same size. The strands on the left do not have any gaps between them, just high and low spots that look like it. It appears to me, that given the same gauge rating, the left has much more available conductor within the same rated size. One of the reasons I wanted to use it, and I got it for free. :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0w8PrR9/20181223-130233.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8JbxCVJH)
You're not alone on being wrong, I'm right there with you.
I like FREE, it doesn't come around often for car parts!! Just make sure the insulation is good for use as a starter cable. It should have some markings to identify insulation type, voltage, and or heat.
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BUT, take a cramped Mustang engine compartment, drive 250+ miles at highway/interstate speeds, shut it off for 3-4 minutes, on a hot day, and trust that a simple cable change is going to solve your problems.
For as cheap as it would be to try, don't you owe it to yourself to try? Afraid I'm right?
I have. Hence the word "experience".
OK you win.
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I thought I'd update this thread with my choice! The Powermaster stock style starter came in, it looks like they've fixed the issue with the start nose hitting the flywheel.
The offending area came nicely machined from the factory- it installed with no issues!
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7810/45771447084_ebe4221935_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2cJECyL)IMG_8295.JPG (https://flic.kr/p/2cJECyL) by armon7 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/55113585@N03/), on Flickr