FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => FE Engine Dyno Results => Topic started by: mn67 on November 12, 2018, 10:02:58 AM
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Performance Summary:
Cubic Inches:445 Dyno brand: Super Flow 901
Power Adder: Where dynoed:FE Power
Peak Horsepower:493 @ 5400
Peak Torque: 515 @4000
Horsepower and Torque Curves:
Engine Specifications:
D3TE Mirror 105, 4.080 bore
Crankshaft : Scat, cast, 4.25
Connecting Rods :Scat I-beam 6.700, ARP bolts
Piston brand, Race-Tech, 11cc dish, 10.5 cr
Main Bearings, Rod Bearings, Cam Bearings brand and size: FM, FM, Durabond
Piston rings brand, size, other notes: Mahle 1.5,1.5,3
Oil Pump, pickup, and drive: Melling HV
Oil pan, windage tray, oil filter adapter: Morosso T-pan, none, Ford
Camshaft: (adv and @.050") Comp Hyd roller, ADV 291/303, .602/.574, -@.050 235/241
Lifters brand, type: Howard Hyd roller
Timing chain and timing cover: Roush
Cylinder heads : Survival Motorsports street/strip ported
Cylinder head flow in cfm at inches of lift (28" H2O pressure drop):
Intake Exhaust
.100 .100
.200 176 .200 130
.300 216 .300 152
.400 270 .400 187
.500 296 .500 216
.600 313 .600 229
.650 317 .650 229
Flow bench used, location: T.E.S Bloomington MN
Intake valve brand, head size, stem size: 2.20, 11/32
Exhaust valve brand, head size, stem size: 1.68 11/32
Valve springs brand, part number, specs: Comp conical, 158# seat, 382# open
Retainers and locks brand, part number, specs: Comp
Rocker arm brand, type (adjustable or non-adj), material, ratio, Harland Sharp, 1.67, adjustable, Aluminum
Rocker shafts and stands, brand, material: Harland Sharp
Pushrods brand, type, length:Trend, 3/8, ball cup, 8.247
Valve covers, brand, type: Pentroof Blue Thunder
Distributor brand, advance curve information: Duraspark (By Faron Rhoads)
Harmonic balancer brand:Powerbond SS
Water pump brand, type (mechanical or electric): CVR 55 GPH electric FEpower adapters
Intake manifold brand, material, porting information: Blue Thunder dual plane 4v, port matched to heads
Carburetor(s) brand, type QF HR780VS
Exhaust manifolds or headers brand, type: Hooker race headers
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Nice!
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Very nice. What is she goin in.
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Stangman, it is going in a 1971 Maverick Grabber, pretty light car.
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Wow that little thing is gonna scoot along pretty good. Can’t wait to see the finished product
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It is a tight fit
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Cool combo. Was the dyno with open headers or into mufflers?
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Werby, good question, I am not positive but I am pretty sure it was into mufflers. I will have to ask.
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Werby, good question, I am not positive but I am pretty sure it was into mufflers. I will have to ask.
That was my guess.
See if you can find out diameters, lengths, muffler size/types for the exhaust, it makes a big difference at that power level!
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If it was on Jay's dyno, I believe he has a bit of an aside in his book to talk about the exhaust setup of his dyno.
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I will look at the book when I get a chance tonight.
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I think it was a chicken house full of used tires. ;D
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That was a chicken 'coop', not a house. A chicken 'house' would probably raise his taxes and cause the zoning commision to investigate his 'rental' properties ;)
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4 Dynomax Two are 2-1/2" in and out, and the other two are 3" in and out.
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Thanks that makes sense.
In any case, at least you have plenty of wide open space there in MN. And will need it - even Jay's dyno exhaust was probably costing you 15hp or more the way I figure it. 15hp out of 500 isn't much though, maybe 1mph trap speed.
Thanks for posting, another data set for the Gonkulator!
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Looking at the cam I would have expected the peak RPM to be a few hundred higher.
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Looking at the cam I would have expected the peak RPM to be a few hundred higher.
Yep, me too.
I have a hard time keeping up with usernames in relation to real names, but that looks like a camshaft that I would have ground, my pistons, etc. That combination here usually makes about 525 hp @ 5500-5600, with quite a bit more torque.
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Brent
I got a lot of my parts from you (Mike in MN). It is almost a clone of your 525/588 engine in the dyno section. I am not sure why it did not hit the #'s. It runs great, makes good oil pressure etc. For whatever reason did not get the numbers. I will play with it a bit and see what I can accomplish Jay did play with timing and jetting just could not get it there. It is going into a 2700 to 2800# car so it probably will not disappoint. I am however going to finish the car, stuff it in and then just build a bigger one (it is the first of a few I want to do). Eventually will use this in another car.
Barry,
It went to 6k without drama but the HP dropped off pretty quick. I have the dyno data but not the graphs. In the end it's an excuse to pick up another set of Survival heads.
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What oil were you using?
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VR1 10-30
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Well, that takes that variable out of the question then. I was hoping you had some hoochie-mama thick oil in there.
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Wish it was that easy. :)
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Here's a 428 that made as much hp/tq as your 445. Little more camshaft, but the heads would be a couple notches under your heads.
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=6145.msg66861#msg66861
Did you try another carburetor?
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It did seem a bit undercarbed, we did not get a chance to try another one though.
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We used a 2" Super Sucker on the dyno, in combination with a Quick Fuel HR-750, for my engine that you referenced.
When he got the engine in the car, he had it chassis dyno'd and it put down 440/500 to the tires with no air cleaner.
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He contacted me recently about the carb, asking if I had an 800 or 850 dbl pumper.
I do, but my advice was to keep the carb he has and see how it drives. This isn't a race car, this is a street car. We can try out a larger carb later. Realistically is he going to see 6000+rpm at 500hp in a light Maverick on the street?
He said the engine was pulling a good bit of vac at wot, I wonder if the VS was opening all the way.
He said a later build will be larger and need a big MS carb, so I'll go ahead and build one, he can always try it out on the 445.
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He said the engine was pulling a good bit of vac at wot......
Red flag there....
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Yessir, my records show 1.7inch at 5800rpms.... but he mentioned it as a weekend car for fun on the street. I dunno about other folks here, but with a 390 stroker I can't keep my 1000lb heavier Galaxie on the road if I try WOT on the street, it's more a >6000rpm, 3/4throttle kinda ride.
I've got a 4781, no dash number, original 1970 carb with the old roller throttle I've been wanting to build just cuz I think it's cool. When I'm done I'll offer it to him, he can try it out just for fun and maybe save it for the next racier build where it'll really shine.
It'll certainly show on the street if you pick up some power down low or not, especially in a lightweight Maverick.
I don't know the nuances of testing VS carbs on the dyno, I've just heard from you guys that they often don't like to open fully, would certainly explain it.
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Yes and I've had QFT throttle blades hit on the plenum/carb pad on a Performer RPM intake before. But if he used a spacer, that would eliminate that variable.
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I stopped by FE Power this past weekend when Mike's engine was being dyno'd. I wasn't able to stay for the whole session, but I was there when Jay checked to make sure the vacuum secondaries were opening all the way after the first few easy pulls, so that wasn't an issue on the full pulls. Mike has an excellent sounding FE, I'm sure it will be fun. I know Jay's been pretty busy lately, he doesn't always see these posts right away, hopefully he comes on at some point with his thoughts. I don't remember all the details on his dyno muffler system either, although I do know his tire "sound baffle" has been disabled.
Mike, if you end up taking your car to the track next summer let me know, if I'm free I'd be happy to go and give you a hand if needed.
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Thanks Kevin, when I get ready to try the car at the track I will certainly give you a call.
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Looking at the cam I would have expected the peak RPM to be a few hundred higher.
Yep, me too.
I have a hard time keeping up with usernames in relation to real names, but that looks like a camshaft that I would have ground, my pistons, etc. That combination here usually makes about 525 hp @ 5500-5600, with quite a bit more torque.
That is right about where the Gonkulator came in - way high vs this dyno test. Maybe partly Jay's "quiet neighborhood" mufflers, maybe some tuning needed too. I'd just get it in the car & sort it out with timeslips.
Oh wait, do they still have winter in MN ?
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At least summer fell on a weekend this year.
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Sorry I'm so late to this party, been buried in getting ready for PRI, among other things. It was actually a rather frustrating dyno session because we were fighting a problem with the engine for most of the afternoon. We couldn't get it to start. Repeated checks for spark and fuel showed that we had both, but despite that the engine just wouldn't fire. Mike had already run it just this way on the engine stand, so it was a real puzzle. One issue was that I didn't have a complete cable to run from the MSD to the plug in Mike's distributor, and I think that may have been the culprit in the end, because the connectors I put on the end of the cable, to plug into the MSD plug on the distributor, may have only been making intermittent contact. Of course I checked them a half dozen times, so I just don't know; we got spark at the plug when we checked it. Go figure. We swapped MSDs, coils, and finally installed one of my MSD distributors and my plug wires. Still no joy. Towards the end of the afternoon I called Kevin, and he came over with another MSD, an MSD tester, a coil, and the cable that I didn't have. The tester indicated that my MSD and my coil were working properly, but we still didn't have any luck. Then we figured out that we goofed when we installed my distributor and got the distributor in 180 degrees off; Mike was the one that finally figured that out. When we got that right about 4:00 the engine fired right up. We swapped back to Mike's distributor and wires, and then they worked fine too. So we were finally able to do some testing. I'm still not sure what was wrong, but again I suspect that cable that we were using at first.
We went through the usual tuning routine and optimized timing and jetting, and after 10 dyno pulls we knew what the engine would do. But after looking at this data again tonight, I think that something else may be going on that is limiting the high RPM power. There are two dyno pull graphs below, the first one to 6000 RPM and the second one to 5800. After about 5300 this engine stops climbing. During the dyno session I thought this might be electrical noise on the signals, because sometimes they show up like that, but I noticed looking at the data tonight that the HP graph is discontinuous, tracking a different line after 5300 RPM. The way the graphs look, I'd suspect possibly valvesprings that are not up to the drill, the hydraulic roller lifters pumping up, or more likely an ignition problem, maybe with spark scatter in the distributor or something. The choppy appearance of the graph is a giveaway that the engine isn't happy past about 5300 RPM:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/mike8.JPG)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/mike9.JPG)
These graphs look just like the graphs from my 428CJ dyno mule, which had flat tappet hydraulic lifters that were the culprit limiting valvetrain control after 5300 RPM. See my book for a comparison between hydraulic and solid lifters, and you will see about the same thing with the flat tappent hydraulics. But I think an ignition issue may be more likely...
I don't think the issue is exhaust related. The dyno has a pressure sensor in the exhaust system, and after conducting experiments with the exhaust connected vs. open headers, I've never seen a HP difference until the pressure in the exhaust system gets close to 1 psi. In this case, the peak exhaust system pressure recorded was 0.366 psi on pull #9. Also, for anyone interested in the correction factor, due to the cold weather the correction factor was very close to zero, only about 2.1%. At the end of pull 9 inlet air temperature was 55 degrees, barometric pressure was 29.27, and vapor pressure was 0.12.
Vacuum at wide open throttle was up to 1.3" at the end of the pull, and there is usually power to be had if you see vacuum levels over 1", so I think a bigger carb would be a good investment.
The reason I think the primary suspect is ignition is that the engine is continuing to pull air at the higher engine speeds. In most cases, if you look at the engine's air consumption (the gold line in the graph below) it will track very closely with the horsepower level. The graph below shows that despite the HP falling off, the engine is continuing to use more air. When a valvespring or lifter problem exists, usually you will see the air curve start to get choppy like the horsepower level. There are cases where a valvetrain issue will not show that characteristic, but in most cases it will. Its too bad that we burned all that time on the dyno trying to get the engine to start, because it would have been interesting to identify this issue, and then try to correct it with a different distributor. Kevin's test equipment indicated that the MSD and coil were working correctly up to the 7000 RPM limiter set in the MSD, so if it is electrical, its got to be the distributor, wires, or plugs.
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/mike9a.JPG)
Oh well, water under the bridge at this point. Its a strong engine for sure, and it was a real pleasure to have Mike and his friend Andy here for the day, and thank goodness Kevin came along with some parts that seemed to solve the problem.
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What was oil temp during the pulls? I've heard that Howards lifters are made by Morel, but I'm not for sure on that. If indeed they are, Morel lifters are sensitive to oil viscosity and if the oil isn't hot enough to flow and keep the lifters pumped up, you will lose control at higher rpms.
No issue with the valve springs pressures. With this particular lobe, those valve spring pressures should be able to reach 6200 easily.
Losing control of the lifters would have given an audible warning similar to a valve float sound.
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Howards are indeed made by Morel.
That graph sure looks like valvetrain or ignition driven limits.
Sometimes its not just spring pressure, but the way the spring interacts with the cam. Big bucks guys will test that on a Spintron, normal folks like us will add some shims or change springs to see what happens.
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Mike, how close to coil bind were the springs set up?
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Brent
I don't have that in front of me and can't remember off hand. I will post that up when I have a chance.
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That's a really small cam from an aftermarket FE installed height perspective. Don't think you can get anywhere close to bind without a pancake stack of shims... Might be a good candidate to try a beehive or conical spring on.
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What was oil temp during the pulls? I've heard that Howards lifters are made by Morel, but I'm not for sure on that. If indeed they are, Morel lifters are sensitive to oil viscosity and if the oil isn't hot enough to flow and keep the lifters pumped up, you will lose control at higher rpms.
No issue with the valve springs pressures. With this particular lobe, those valve spring pressures should be able to reach 6200 easily.
Losing control of the lifters would have given an audible warning similar to a valve float sound.
Unfortunately we didn't have an oil temp port that we could use, so we didn't get any oil temp data. If I had to guess I'd say it would have been on the low side, maybe 150 degrees or so, but you never know. The engine sounded find all the way through the dyno pull, no audible indication of a valvetrain issue that I heard...
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Barry,
It is a Conical spring
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Did y'all cut the oil filter apart?
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I did after the run stand, not the dyno run. I can certainly do that tonight.
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Barry,
It is a Conical spring
Then the spring aint likely to be the issue based on past experience.
Kinda thinking like Jay - - ignition connection deal - or maybe some kind of shiznit got into the carb?
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Barry,
It is a Conical spring
Then the spring aint likely to be the issue based on past experience.
Kinda thinking like Jay - - ignition connection deal - or maybe some kind of shiznit got into the carb?
Snoop Dogg Rabotnick?
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Barry,
It is a Conical spring
Then the spring aint likely to be the issue based on past experience.
Kinda thinking like Jay - - ignition connection deal - or maybe some kind of shiznit got into the carb?
Snoop Dogg Rabotnick?
Sorry about that. Couldn't help it. Wind blew and my hat spun sideways....yo
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I have two theories on this one, of course all without being there, so it's all really a WAG
1 - It had a minor misfire or crossfire on top that fooled the O2 sensors into thinking it was fatter than it was, as you guys ended up with far less jet than I'd expect with a 780 and more timing than I'd expect it to need with that chamber indicating it was a little lean too.
2 - The carb wasn't opening all the way, even after you tied the linkage, which did something funky at the boosters that caused the abnormal jetting. Building vacuum would indicate a carb size or throttle blade issue and could cause some puddling of fuel which made the mixture goofy and held power back
If neither of those are true, that lean of a jet could be an indicator of an HSAB issue that was making the booster come in too hard and too early, however, that alone wouldn't keep the power and RPM peak low, so I would go back to my evil theories :)
Too bad you guys couldn't have got a known good and BIG carb on it. I don't think a 780 alone would kill the peaks on a 445, but it would have been good to see what it did with a known good carb and a little more airflow
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Thanks Ross,
I will be playing with it a bit this week trying to figure it out. Until it is in the car or back on the dyno wich I am certainly up for I will not know how big a difference things make. I am pretty sure I can find most the HP of comperable builds but for the 70+ ft pounds of torque I am certain I would need to start over. For now I am going to optimize it as best I can and see what it does in the car. There are always more engines to build. ;D
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I would think you might find another 20 horsepower in the package and maybe 15 or 20 more torque. Ain't no 70 pounds in there...
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My guess is that there's a hidden 20-25 hp and 20-30 lb-ft there.
If you're trying to match my 445 build where it showed over 550 lb-ft of torque, I would attribute that to the dyno. I will say that the particular engine you're referencing put down over 500 lb-ft to the tires with a TKO and a 9" Ford, but chassis dynos are kinda like engine dynos...
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I started this build looking for a solid 500/500 engine (just used the other engine as a reference) I know there is no where near that amount of tq in this. Anything above 500 is a bonus. But like all of us just want it to be as good as it can be. Thanks for your help, I will report back after I get it dialed in. In the end I am very happy with it, plus it sounds and looks great:)
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It's a great engine, and with traction will run hard. My big thing is that I think it should peak at a higher RPM. You won't get a big number increase like Barry and Brent said, but it just seems like for some reason itr an out of steam early
Can't wait to hear how it does!