FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Non-FE Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Stangman on October 08, 2018, 07:48:06 AM
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8594 distributor is the pickup coil a part that can be gotten at a regular parts store or
would you get it from MSD
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Joe, while I haven't checked specifically, I'm pretty sure that Chris said it was basically a Ford Duraspark pickup.
I'm curious if you had one go bad? Mine just started to go bad again. Took the car out last week and it started to cut out on me. I could see it in the tach at first while running down the highway, then worse when I was running through the gears. That's the way its started to go bad every time, and within a week or 2 it just completely gives out. This is the FOURTH one in 3 years! Those were all MSD pickups, so if it is the same as a Duraspark, I'm going to try a different one.
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With all the trouble I get for running a Unilite conversion in two of my vehicles, I sure do see a LOT of MSD failures.
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My racing buddy had the pickup go bad a few years ago at the track in a MSD distributor, but for a 351W. We asked around and found another racer with a spare Ford Motorcraft replacement pickup. We also picked up a replacement pickup for a Ford Duraspark at the local NAPA too. What we found ( going by memory here ) was that, although the pickup is basically the same, the size of the two holes though them ( through the magnet ) and the way the mounting screws go into the distributor body are not the same, and so we weren't able to directly put the Motorcraft pickup in the MSD distributor. I'd have to compare side by side again to remember the details. Someone who is handy could maybe adapt the Duraspark pickup to the MSD. MSD does sell a replacement pickup, you should be able to order from Summit, Jegs, etc. I'm sure some local parts stores that sell MSD products can get one too, but I doubt many carry one on hand. I will add, like Doug's experience, I've been reading about quite a few people with MSD distributor pickup failures the last couple years, although in my friends case he had been wiring on some new electrical devices right before that race weekend, and he may have been responsible for his failure, we don't know for sure.
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Seems it is all more of a recent issue, then stuff from 20 yrs back. Kinda like everything else electronic these days. The old it is, the better chance it is going to survive the test of time.
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Seems it is all more of a recent issue, then stuff from 20 yrs back.
Like kinda when a certain Holley buys the MSD group in 2015 IIRC?
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So what happened to me is car was running good and i let my dad make a pass which was the first of the day although I
took the car for a ride to warm it up and it seemed like it was running good. First pass since 1995 so burnout wasnt great and he spun the tires, it finally hooked up and he came back to the pits shut it off and we went over what happened with the burnout and stuff. so about half hour later they called my class so I hopped in the car to go up to the line and it cranked for like 10-15 seconds and didnt start (my car usually starts right up ) so i gave it a shot of gas and it still didnt start. Tried flooring it and finally got it running but smelt raw fuel like maybe the reason was a no spark problem. Was clearing it out but felt like I was giving it gas and wasnt accepting fuel. Almost like a car that has a bad throttle assembly on a new car. Checked to see if accellerator pump was pumping and seemed to be good. Now as you guys know I have a gremlin in my car that give me hesitations and almost seems like its misfiring. Thats why I redid my fuel system. So the only thing that I havent played around with is the pickup because my distributor cant even have 500 miles on it. Now 2 weeks ago my car ran like a rapped ape. I tell ya sometimes this sport can try your patients. While we are at it are the bowl gaskets for the quick fuel carbs the same as a regular holley, im assuming so but would like a conformation on that. By the way I did buy one from Jegs but you can get them from advanced. I called my part store and was surprised that they couldnt get it. I also have an S&K SPEEhere that I could have got it from.
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I believe this is my cue to remind everyone that old-fangled points rule. Absolutely. No doubt about it. Now, back to your regularly scheduled program.
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Seems to be more MSD trouble. I have an old Motorsport box built by MSD for Ford. These were popular in the late 80's, in NASCAR using a Duraspark distributor. I still use it on the F100 , still works 30 years later.
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Larry I had a unilite for 20 years no problems, then had one photocell go bad and couldnt keep one in there
went through 3 checked wiring couldnt find anything and had to move on. but never a hint of trouble for a long time
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...........as I hold my breath over mine surviving a long time :o. I just put one in my blower car, I hope it is a good one, as it's about 5 yrs old to begin with.
I have dreaded removing the points, but you can't buy quality points/condensers anymore either? This last set were weak, real weak. Hardly get to 4K without it popping and snorting. Ugh, thus I swapped it over to Unilite. It absolutely SCREAMS now. Hasn't run like this in 20 yrs.
The blower car, I run it off the pink wire(along with antique 6AL box(25 yr old). Runs awesome. The wagon I run it off full 12v, but it only runs for a few minutes at a time so it has not had any issues(glad season is over, as I just likely jinxed it now) for 20 yrs.
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Do thet sell unilites anymore. I thought msd bought them out . I geuss they will ruin that too.
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https://www.summitracing.com/parts/maa-3755301/overview/make/ford
They still make them, most all are for roller cams. Don't know if they are crappy MSD quality or as good as the orginals.
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I bought a bunch of new Unilites cheap, maybe 25 years ago with that two
piece cap where the wires enter straight from the top. unfortunately
they are for Cleveland and 429/460
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I've always done the pertonix conversion. I'm actually surprised to see so many people on here using unilites and I don't see as many people mention pertronix. There seems to be quite a bit of hassle with various ignition systems that (knock on wood) I don't tend to run into.
Here's a quick story...... Through high school and college I drove a '68 Ranchero daily. Had pertonix on it, with a pertonix coil (lasted the entire time I owned the car, minimum 9 years). My buddy was messing with me and pulled the coil wire off the distributor without me knowing, I hopped in and the car started right up. He jumped out quick and opened the hood completely surprised that it was actually running, he told me that the coil wire had an arc about 2-3 inches long to the distributor. He bought a pertonix setup for his Chevelle that night.
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I run the $48 brand new duraspark distributors from rock auto on everything.
My truck had a duraspark box and my car has an msd box. No issues.
I have a couple old msd boxes I bought cheap. I’d rather have them rebuilt than buy new.
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I bought a bunch of new Unilites cheap, maybe 25 years ago with that two
piece cap where the wires enter straight from the top. unfortunately
they are for Cleveland and 429/460
Those aren't unilites, those are early Mallory YC distributors. I ran one for years til it finally went haywire and I switched to a YL dual point(which I put the unilite in). Mine are all tach drive. They look like Magento's, that is what I liked about them.
Here is google pic:
(https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachments/p1010004-jpg.3315519/)
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Isn't YL point distributors? mine have the optic eye..i almost sure
there is some Unilite text somewere on them or in the instructions
must check that
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did anyone see my question about bowl gaskets on quick fuel carbs, are they the same as regular holley bowls
cause they are a different shape.
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They are different but you can use Holley gaskets.
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Thanks Drew are they just different for the way they make them for the FE or quick fuel in general.
If it’s in general then I guess I can get them from a speed shop, but if not maybe I have to get them from Barry or someone who sells the FE carbs. Yes/No?
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QF gaskets will work on Holley.
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If you use the brown ones, I like to slather them down in silicone based grease. They will come off cleanly for years.
I often use those or black gaskets for vintage carbs as I find the blue to be an eyesore on a classic carb.
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Thanks Drew
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If you use the brown ones, I like to slather them down in silicone based grease. They will come off cleanly for years.
I often use those or black gaskets for vintage carbs as I find the blue to be an eyesore on a classic carb.
I agree with the cosmetics. Chapstick works really well on those brown gaskets to prevent sticking....the black ones will weld themselves into place for eternity if you don't put something on them.
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I believe this is my cue to remind everyone that old-fangled points rule. Absolutely. No doubt about it. Now, back to your regularly scheduled program.
I wasn’t going to say anything, but since you started it, DITTO. Points triggering an MSD box. I’ve been doing it for decades. Simple, clean, reliable, and the points last virtually forever with this set-up. And if the box goes puke ( which hardly EVER happens, it’s always the triggering decide that barfs) you move two wires and you are back in business.
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The MSD magnet is a bit different than a Duraspark . It (to me) has a stronger magnet , possibly rare earth material. All that is important is the fact that it triggers the box to fire which a Duraspark dist does perfectly. I have also used Chrysler style magnetic pickups ( in Ford distributors) that trigger an MSD perfectly. The magnetic pulse is all that is required. Wire breakage is the only factor "I" have seen in magnetic pickup failure in the 40+ years I have been using them.
Randy
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I wasn’t going to say anything, but since you started it, DITTO. Points triggering an MSD box. I’ve been doing it for decades. Simple, clean, reliable, and the points last virtually forever with this set-up. And if the box goes puke ( which hardly EVER happens, it’s always the triggering decide that barfs) you move two wires and you are back in business.
I used points to trigger my old MSD Blaster box for over 20 years. The very low voltage also made them last forever. I also have them, along with the conventional ignition system, in my Galaxie, and it starts easier than any vehicle I have ever seen. However, having said that, points don't cut it once you get to 6000 RPMs. In todays engines that will run 6500-7500+ RPMs, you need a better alternative.
Wire breakage is the only factor "I" have seen in magnetic pickup failure in the 40+ years I have been using them.
Randy
I'm not the only one who has had issues with a pickup that "checked" good with a basic resistance test. I won't go into details, but most on here might recall that I've double, triple and quadruple checked every component in my system, including using multiple backups on boxes, direct wiring to battery, isolated wiring etc etc etc. My current pickup checks good, but it's showing the same signs of imminent failure that the others have done. My first one lasted about 20 years, but that has all changed since the buyout.
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I wasn’t going to say anything, but since you started it, DITTO. Points triggering an MSD box. I’ve been doing it for decades. Simple, clean, reliable, and the points last virtually forever with this set-up. And if the box goes puke ( which hardly EVER happens, it’s always the triggering decide that barfs) you move two wires and you are back in business.
I have the wagon wired as such, using spade connectors in such a fashion all I have to do is unplug the MSD, swap a few around and the Unilite will run the engine alone.
Yes, the weak springs on points cause more issues than anything. Even with 6AL, it will get scatter brained if the points bounce. With the Unilite and 6AL on the blower car, it starts from a dead cold and idles perfect instantly. It would never do that with just the points. You had to warm it up some.
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If you use the brown ones, I like to slather them down in silicone based grease. They will come off cleanly for years.
The same stuff the wife use to shine up her Latex clothes?......Asking for a friend ;D
It worked perfect to get the sparkplug boots on
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Yeah heo. I’m lazy so I stock only a few things.
Thus “tap magic” is the oil that gets used on everything and dielectric grease gets used on gaskets and orings
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I wasn’t going to say anything, but since you started it, DITTO. Points triggering an MSD box. I’ve been doing it for decades. Simple, clean, reliable, and the points last virtually forever with this set-up. And if the box goes puke ( which hardly EVER happens, it’s always the triggering decide that barfs) you move two wires and you are back in business.
I used points to trigger my old MSD Blaster box for over 20 years. The very low voltage also made them last forever. I also have them, along with the conventional ignition system, in my Galaxie, and it starts easier than any vehicle I have ever seen. However, having said that, points don't cut it once you get to 6000 RPMs. In todays engines that will run 6500-7500+ RPMs, you need a better alternative.
Wire breakage is the only factor "I" have seen in magnetic pickup failure in the 40+ years I have been using them.
Randy
I'm not the only one who has had issues with a pickup that "checked" good with a basic resistance test. I won't go into details, but most on here might recall that I've double, triple and quadruple checked every component in my system, including using multiple backups on boxes, direct wiring to battery, isolated wiring etc etc etc. My current pickup checks good, but it's showing the same signs of imminent failure that the others have done. My first one lasted about 20 years, but that has all changed since the buyout.
6000. Really....
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6000. Really....
With a single point system, and todays cheap points, yes. You could get more with a dual point system or an old, strong set of points. I guess you chose to ignore the next sentence though? I'm pretty old school when it comes to my vehicles, but I'm not going to argue with someone that thinks points are better in a high RPM, high horsepower scenario.
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6000. Really....
With a single point system, and todays cheap points, yes. You could get more with a dual point system or an old, strong set of points. I guess you chose to ignore the next sentence though? I'm pretty old school when it comes to my vehicles, but I'm not going to argue with someone that thinks points are better in a high RPM, high horsepower scenario.
The trick here is to pay close attention to the rating in ounces of the points that pop up on eBay. You really can find good quality stuff if you look closely.
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Back about a zillion years, when I was running points, I was also a scuba diver/instructor. Many new scuba items came with scraps of wet-suit material as packing. I found it worthwhile to wedge a piece of the neoprene foam wet-suit material behind the points and next to the diz body. Absolutely stopped the points from floating at extended RPM. A substitute for the WS material could probably be found if one were to look.
KS
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Back about a zillion years, when I was running points, I was also a scuba diver/instructor. Many new scuba items came with scraps of wet-suit material as packing. I found it worthwhile to wedge a piece of the neoprene foam wet-suit material behind the points and next to the diz body. Absolutely stopped the points from floating at extended RPM. A substitute for the WS material could probably be found if one were to look.
KS
Rubber band?
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It took a wad of WS material at least 3/8-1/2 inch to fill in between the points arm and the diz body. I believe you'd play hob trying to do it with a wad of rubber band. There's all kinds of spongy stuff that might work.
KS
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It took a wad of WS material at least 3/8-1/2 inch to fill in between the points arm and the diz body. I believe you'd play hob trying to do it with a wad of rubber band. There's all kinds of spongy stuff that might work.
KS
Valve cover gasket?
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Back about a zillion years, when I was running points, I was also a scuba diver/instructor. Many new scuba items came with scraps of wet-suit material as packing. I found it worthwhile to wedge a piece of the neoprene foam wet-suit material behind the points and next to the diz body. Absolutely stopped the points from floating at extended RPM. A substitute for the WS material could probably be found if one were to look.
KS
Rubber band?
I'm just really relieved to know that I havent been shifting my truck at 7200, and the tach is reading 1200 rpm high. I WAS kinda worried about the hypers, I can relax and breath easy now..it's wonderful the info you can learn on the internet.... ::)
If, BIG if, you can manage to float a set of 32oz points, a short piece of 5/16 vacuum hose works well, And you might even have it laying around. But you will be north of 8000 by that time, I presume if you are spinning an FE north of 8k, you probably have bigger concerns than point float.
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FElony, if you find that you have an application that you can't get the good guy 32oz point set for, don't reach for that Guanzou made module just yet.
If you take a good look at most old point sets, there are actually two separate springs there. The copper one is riveted on, but the heavier metal one just hooks through a rectangular hole in the point arm on one end, and is held on by the nut on the other. You can take two of these point sets, and take the main spring from one, and add it to the other point set. I just did this with two echlin point sets for a small block single point for my Cleveland, and ran it to 7500 in my buddies distributor machine. Since I'll be shifting it below that, I didn't bother running it to point bounce, there was no reason to.
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So dad called today and new pickup is here. Do you have to take the whole distributor apart
or can you just take upper plate off.
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FElony, if you find that you have an application that you can't get the good guy 32oz point set for, don't reach for that Guanzou made module just yet.
If you take a good look at most old point sets, there are actually two separate springs there. The copper one is riveted on, but the heavier metal one just hooks through a rectangular hole in the point arm on one end, and is held on by the nut on the other. You can take two of these point sets, and take the main spring from one, and add it to the other point set. I just did this with two echlin point sets for a small block single point for my Cleveland, and ran it to 7500 in my buddies distributor machine. Since I'll be shifting it below that, I didn't bother running it to point bounce, there was no reason to.
Nifty, however, Accel still makes 32 oz Ford-specific points. You would know this if you did your homework like I told you to do. https://www.holley.com/products/ignition/tune_up_kits/parts/110228
Once again, plebes, points rule. No muss, no fuss.
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FElony, if you find that you have an application that you can't get the good guy 32oz point set for, don't reach for that Guanzou made module just yet.
If you take a good look at most old point sets, there are actually two separate springs there. The copper one is riveted on, but the heavier metal one just hooks through a rectangular hole in the point arm on one end, and is held on by the nut on the other. You can take two of these point sets, and take the main spring from one, and add it to the other point set. I just did this with two echlin point sets for a small block single point for my Cleveland, and ran it to 7500 in my buddies distributor machine. Since I'll be shifting it below that, I didn't bother running it to point bounce, there was no reason to.
Well, to be honest, I knew I could still get them, but I would have had to order them from Summit,and I am in Canada, it takes awhile to get them, and I wanted to test it to see if I had the centrifugal where I wanted it,and I was impatient, so I took the spring off the points that were in the sb distributor,and added it to a set of practically new echlin points that were in an FE distributor I had picked up to use to drive the oil pump/plug the hole in my FE when I convert it to a cam driven accel dual point. I figured since they were there, and I was just going to cut the top off it anyway, I may as well use them. I was in a rush to get the distributor tested, and well...besides, I am a cheap bastard. ;) ;D
Nifty, however, Accel still makes 32 oz Ford-specific points. You would know this if you did your homework like I told you to do. https://www.holley.com/products/ignition/tune_up_kits/parts/110228
Once again, plebes, points rule. No muss, no fuss.
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Well, to be honest, I knew I could still get them, but I would have had to order them from Summit...
Bull cock on rye. You can get them straight from Holley or any number of eBay vendors.
...and I am in Canada...
That explains a lot. Also, let me change that to moose cock on rye.
it takes awhile to get them, and I wanted to test it to see if I had the centrifugal where I wanted it,and I was impatient, so I took the spring off the points that were in the sb distributor,and added it to a set of practically new echlin points that were in an FE distributor I had picked up to use to drive the oil pump/plug the hole in my FE when I convert it to a cam driven accel dual point. I figured since they were there, and I was just going to cut the top off it anyway, I may as well use them. I was in a rush to get the distributor tested, and well...
Blah blah blah (hip waders) blah bla
besides, I am a bastard. ;D :-[
Fixed that for you.
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I am of Scottish heritage, so rather than moose cock, it should probably be sheep bollocks...
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besides, I am a bastard. ;D :-[
Fixed that for you.
Goddammit Felony, how many times do I have to tell you!!! I am a douchebag, NOT a bastard! ::)
[/quote]
You are both until you learn to properly quote, and spell my name correctly.
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besides, I am a bastard. ;D :-[
Fixed that for you.
Goddammit Felony, how many times do I have to tell you!!! I am a douchebag, NOT a bastard! ::)
You are both until you learn to properly quote, and spell my name correctly.
[/quote]
Well, and after I looked at it, I realized I was the one that said I was a bastard, so I had to change it. And clearly, I STILL haven't learned to quote properly.... ::) >:(
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So dad called today and new pickup is here. Do you have to take the whole distributor apart
or can you just take upper plate off.
Service "in place", just takes a good touch and some swear words. The original MSD pickup is normally glued into position with some sort of silicone or epoxy. Probably for vibration resistance. The little strain relief on the wiring pigtail can be a bit of a bugger...
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Like Barry said. I usually take a pair of needle nose pliers and squeeze the plastic strain relief, while pushing against it with a small screw driver to pop it out of the housing. Getting it back in isn't near as difficult. I also embed the pickup with some silicone, just like MSD does, and for the reasons Barry mentioned, vibration resistance and to add a little cushion/support when tightened down.
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I still have several sets of the original Ford "transistorized" points. These have a higher tension spring and a half size contact on the arm. Back in the day these were called "low inertia" points and recommended by Ford for high rpm usage. I ran them over 7,000 without issue. I used a single in a dual point distributor ( like Ford did on their transistorized systems) to trigger an MSD 6AL and it was fine.
Randy
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It took a wad of WS material at least 3/8-1/2 inch to fill in between the points arm and the diz body. I believe you'd play hob trying to do it with a wad of rubber band. There's all kinds of spongy stuff that might work.
KS
Valve cover gasket?
Probably too stiff. You need more than a car wash sponge but less than a piece of tire sidewall.
KS
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Put the pickup in today, no problems. Started right up I had fuel pressure at 6 I put it to 5-5.5 readjusted floats so they were perfectly in the middle. After it warmed up adjust mixture screws and seemed to idle fine. One weird thing which I dont think I
had originally while car was running good is when I give it gas and let off idle stays up light 200 rpm for about 5 seconds then it settles down. While the idle is up for that specific time I go around and make sure nothing is sticking on like throttles or secondaries and there not. Also the back carb the squirter gasket was leaking ever so slightly I would think thats because the float level was high but it isnt. I took it apart and reset it and seems to be good. I dont get it my car runs like a rapped ape one week and weird the next. Well seems like it is running half way decent we will see this weekend. One thing I did notice was the pickup metal stripe thats the reluctor hits protruded by like a 16th to an 1/8 and the one that I took out was indented. When I was dont the gap was 22 to 23 thousandths which is in spec but the original one was about 30 and that stripe was under the plasticby at least 20 thousanths. Weird man Im gonna kick this gremlins ass but in the meanwhile its ticking me off
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I still have several sets of the original Ford "transistorized" points. These have a higher tension spring and a half size contact on the arm. Back in the day these were called "low inertia" points and recommended by Ford for high rpm usage. I ran them over 7,000 without issue. I used a single in a dual point distributor ( like Ford did on their transistorized systems) to trigger an MSD 6AL and it was fine.
Randy
Very cool parts. Really hard to get now.
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I'd be willing to bet that the idle issue is due to the advance weights sticking a little bit. I've had it happen to me before. The rubbing pads are replaceable, or you could try lightly lubricating them. I'd also check everything over carefully in the advance system to make sure there is no binding and that everything works very smoothly.
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See drag section
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I have not tried a Ford pickup in an MSD unit, but do use an MSD unit in a Ford Duraspark base and it worked good. I have not put a scope on one, but the indication from my Mallory 685 boxes is that the MSD has a much stronger signal than the stock Ford unit. Also, I've had no failures of any MSD part - so may be lucky, or special.
(http://raceabilene.com/misc/302_notes/302_tram_dizzy1.jpg)
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See how the magnet protrudes from the plastic, the one that I took out was recessed.