FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 427HISS on September 20, 2018, 07:10:13 PM
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Talk about yours, specs with photo's.
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I don't use nitrous, but there have been 2 or 3 forum members over the years that have used it. At least one is still active here. The only pictures I've seen them post were of parts and pieces that were left over after they (the blocks and cranks) decided they had had enough. :o To be fair though, it was years ago and they were using stock parts.
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I used to be a pretty heavy nitrous user.
Car was indeed fast, but it also had a pretty good appetite for parts....
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I've sprayed 100 to 250 HP over the years, mostly plate systems from NOS. My supercharged FE made 1030 HP on the blower and just over 1200 with a 175 HP nitrous shot. Ran a 125 HP shot on my mostly stock 428CJ with good results (see the link below). Can't recall ever breaking any parts, but I was always careful to retard timing and be a little rich on the fuel.
http://fepower.net/Dyno%20Results/dyno_results_3.html
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Is there a percentage of how much more jetting the carb needs to safely use nitrous.
Not that I would use it just curious.
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I ran bottle and bottles through my F100 in the late 80s, early 90s, and we also ran a CJ5 mud bogger with a 351W with N2O. That was a wild little machine, 38 inch mudders, 351W on juice, Toploader and 4.11s, no roof and a roll cage. Felt much faster than it probably was
We didn't change the carb settings much, most plate systems are pretty rich on the fuel side, the key was to make sure the fuel supply to the nitrous system was up to snuff so it didn't go lean.
Timing was important, as well as a little cooler plug. The Jeep was locked out, so we just cranked it back, but truck was a street/work truck, and I was young and dumb, so I used to just set timing at stock specs and disconnect the vac advance. It did fine, but it was more for horsing around than real performance.
We never broke anything on the Jeep, and the truck was in so many configurations when I was young, I didn't either, but probably would have if I wasn't always taking it apart and trying something new LOL
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Lets just say that I was not "careful" with the package back then. I was running with a pretty tough crowd and felt considerable pressure to try and keep up.
Car had an individual adjustable N2O plate under each carb, with four solenoids and two bottles in the trunk. Found out that it was quicker if I just tossed the N2O jets and ran the lines naked right into the plates. Also discovered that it was quicker yet if I drained the hot radiator coolant over the nitrous bottles before a pass to get them really warmed up and put cold water into the engine.
Pretty lousy video but its all I've got...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt-qfc6iDxA
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We didn't change the carb settings much, most plate systems are pretty rich on the fuel side, the key was to make sure the fuel supply to the nitrous system was up to snuff so it didn't go lean.
Fuel pressure was the key thing I watched also, had a separate regulator and line from the electric pump for the fuel solenoid, and always ran 7-8 psi there to make sure I was on the rich side.
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my engine builder told me my 428 would make a good nitrous engine when i picked it up.he has bracket raced fords for over 40 years.i have stock block and rods but i have arp studs and bolts in all areas
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I am currently rebuilding my 427 to use a small shot of nitrous, maybe 200 tops. Diamond pistons and molnar power adder rods, forged steel rpm crank all spec'd by blair. Hopefully i don't scatter to many parts...
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Nitrous gets a bad rap, more times than not it's the user at fault, not the product. A good fogger system, a progressive controller, separate fuel regulator with good pressure, decent components, and a good turn up will yield very good and reliable results.
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The bad rap of nitrous is not totally unwarranted. All it takes is one small glitch, power loss or solenoid failure, for just a second, and pow, you've got a box of scrap parts. I'm just guessing, but I'd venture to say that the majority of engine failures in most power adder racing classes is due to nitrous. There's no shortage of videos of this happening, even by experienced guys. Not trying to knock it, I know it's the cheapest easiest horsepower out there, but I weigh the disadvantages of it with the advantages, and I just don't see the appeal. Cast cranks are definitely not the way to go, that's for sure. Maybe with a small staged hit you can get away with it for a while.
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Reminds me of a favorite Drag Week story. In 2005 the eventual winner was running 8.50s and spraying a 500 shot in his Nova. His fuel solenoid ground wire came loose on the drive to Bowling Green, and at the track when he hit the nitrous he had no extra fuel. Burned all his pistons to a crisp. One of the other competitors drove at high speed about 100 miles to a speed shop, got there just before closing at 5:00, and picked up replacement pistons and rings. They rebuilt the engine in the pits at Bowling Green, gapped the rings with an angle grinder, and took off for National Trail at 3:00 AM. Got there around 9:30 or so, went right out and made another 8.55 pass. Unbelievable perseverance from that guy...
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In 1986 I was running bracket 1 at the Fun Ford Nationals at Carlsbad Raceway near San Diego.
I had dialed in my Mustang at 11.60...and promptly lit the "red-eye" in round 1.
My racing day over, I thought I'd give my ICE 200 shot a try.
Got back in the lanes with my "squeeze" ready to go. Pull up to the tree think'n a 10 second run was gonna happen.
Light turns green and the car hooks good. Hit the "juice" in the top of first gear and MAN...what a ride! Got through second gear and on into high never lifting off the button.
Then it happened. A few hundred feet before the finish line a VERY loud pop and fire was shooting forward out'a the Boss 429 hood scoop and wrapping around it toward the windshield. It was really cool!
Coasted to the return lane and towed back to the pits. Lifted the hood.
So that's what it looks like when your Holley's boosters are melted into your hood scoop!
It did not hurt my 427 'cept for the carb and 8 melted spark plugs.
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The bad rap of nitrous is not totally unwarranted. All it takes is one small glitch, power loss or solenoid failure, for just a second, and pow, you've got a box of scrap parts. I'm just guessing, but I'd venture to say that the majority of engine failures in most power adder racing classes is due to nitrous. There's no shortage of videos of this happening, even by experienced guys. Not trying to knock it, I know it's the cheapest easiest horsepower out there, but I weigh the disadvantages of it with the advantages, and I just don't see the appeal. Cast cranks are definitely not the way to go, that's for sure. Maybe with a small staged hit you can get away with it for a while.
Good guess, and I think you would be right. I'd add though that up until the last 8 or 10 years the nitrous cars out numbered the other power adders at 5 to 1 so naturally you would hear about more failures from these cars.
I'm only saying that good parts and maintenance along with a good tune up yield good results. Been doing it for 15 years on my late best friends (RIP Ralph) 7.0 top sportsman BB ford.
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Sorry about your buddy, Keith.
Something I've gotten into the habit of doing with nitrous, is to run a wide band O2 with a Lean Safety Shutoff switch. The last one I bought, came from Dave's Nitrous Outlet. Basically, you input a value for whatever you don't want the A/F to go beyond - let's say 13:1 for grins - If the WBO2 sees 13.00009:1, it interrupts the power to your nitrous system (I use the WOT switch's ground, interrupt it and kill the system OR if my timing retard is activated by WOT, I take out the nitrous solenoid itself), and saves your bacon on the motor. I stole this idea from a friend, and fortunately never needed it. I personally witnessed it save his engine twice due to electrical gremlins. He was trying to use the Lingenfelter two step when it first came out, with a progressive N2O controller, and those two flat would not get along (LS platform).
Also, I think nitrous is exempt from the "rich is safe" rule of thumb. Some say it can actually make things worse... All I know is, I bought that advice and it has served me well. You want your air/fuel to be correct at all times for the combo, what you DON'T want, is too much timing. TIMING is the key. I've never personally sprayed more than a 250, so I won't pretend to be a true expert, but I have certainly learned a lot about reading spark plugs, and tuning - through nitrous. I've never hurt any of my own, or others engines either. If you want to go faster? throw a bigger nitrous jet and pull more timing. DO NOT try to richen up, and add "just one more degree of timing" from a safe/good running tune. Maybe that makes more sense... Anyway.
I can't think of the guy's name on YellowBullet, Monty I think? If anyone is interested in learning how to run nitrous without destroying things, searching his posts would be an EXTREMELY good place to start. Best N2O information I've found, anywhere on the internet. Guy knows his stuff, and fortunately is one that is willing to share/help others.
I'm running an Induction Solutions plate on my 421" FE. Well, after all my crap comes back from Blair anyway. For the kit, I'll be using a stand alone fuel system with race gas for added security, as always. Something I HIGHLY recommend in a street/pump gas car. Cheaper than a set of pistons...
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And, you asked for pics so.. This is my plate, and product engineering fuel supply/plumbing etc from the last time I used this thing. Been a minute..
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I can't think of the guy's name on YellowBullet, Monty I think? If anyone is interested in learning how to run nitrous without destroying things, searching his posts would be an EXTREMELY good place to start. Best N2O information I've found, anywhere on the internet. Guy knows his stuff, and fortunately is one that is willing to share/help others.
I'm not on Yellow Bullet, but I'm guessing Monte is Monte Smith? Sadly Monte passed away about a year and a half ago.
Monte Smith helped Dave Schroeder tune his Nitrous assisted Corvette, which Dave took to a sentimental Drag Week win in 2017 after Monte's passing. There is also a long running Monte Smith Nitrous thread on the Moparts forum that they have saved. I haven't been through it, but likely some good info there too.
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I'm not on Yellow Bullet, but I'm guessing Monte is Monte Smith? Sadly Monte passed away about a year and a half ago.
Monte Smith helped Dave Schroeder tune his Nitrous assisted Corvette, which Dave took to a sentimental Drag Week win in 2017 after Monte's passing. There is also a long running Monte Smith Nitrous thread on the Moparts forum that they have saved. I haven't been through it, but likely some good info there too.
Yes sir, that would be him. That is indeed very sad, and quite a loss. It's rare to find people with the qualities he seemed to have. I really appreciate how consistently generous he was with fellow racers/car guys, simply because he loved what he did and wanted to help others enjoy it too. I've been "out of the game" for several years, so I would not have known that he passed.
That's a really cool story about Schroeder's vette. Always enjoy seeing stuff that like that go down, especially when those involved are still grieving... I still can't shake this solemn feeling myself though. Thank you for the heads up.