FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: wsu0702 on July 13, 2018, 11:01:27 PM
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I am still trying to decide which carb to run on the big cubic inch FE street/strip build that I am currently collecting parts for. I have been researching the Holley 3 barrel carbs recently and I am really impressed with what everyone has to say about them. It sounds like the biggest issue is that it takes some trial n error to eliminate the "secondary bog". But once you figure that out they are a top notch carb for street/strip applications. Should I spend the time/money to locate and purchase one of these rare carbs or would I be better off going with a modern big CFM carb.
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...once you figure that out they are a top notch carb for street/strip applications
I've never heard that. If the 3160 was the hot ticket, Holley would have made a bunch more and would still be making them.
I'll never build another carb'd motor, but based on input from others, a 3160 would not be on my list if I did. They were intended and used for big inch motors where finesse and driveability were of no concern. With poor secondary signal control, they were still outclassed by properly tuned 4150s and 4500s.
That said, I'm only repeating what I've been told by others. I've never played with one. That's how humans progress. Work with what has been proven to succeed and not replicate failure of others.
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They're not as rare as you may think they are. They are on eBay often but the prices vary and sometimes expensive. I don't know how much research you've done but I think they only made two versions, 950cfm and the 1050cfm (pictured). I considered using one after accuiring a partial 1050 assembly in a trade but I found that most of the guys that praised the performance of the three barrel carbs over modern day carbs we're simply just having trouble letting go of the"glory days". I still have the three barrel parts and they are a cool conversation piece but that's all they will ever be for me. If you're not going for a period correct type build you will be much happier with correctly matched modern four barrel carburetor. The only upside I see in using a three carburetor is when you are telling someone the details of your car and the look on their face when you say three barrel.
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I decided to try the 3 barrel, I picked up a new 1050 to play with on my build. I had seen one ran on the dyno on you tube and did some research afterwards.
So there are stories of the bog when the secondaries open, and a fix was to extend the primary shooter to the secondary, then make it mechanical instead of vacuum, and I don't know if that was done just on the 1050 or if it was needed on the 950 ?
So, there are 3 versions the 3616-1S 950 CFM the 4604 S 1050 CFM and a later version of the 4604 S rated at 950 CFM but this one came with Annular boosters in the rear.
The reasons production on the 3 barrels stopped was because demand stopped after Holley came out with the Dominators.
I wanted vacuum secondaries for a street car and the larger modern day carbs are double pumpers, so I will try some modern day tech and years of peoples tuning experience on an older carb and see what happens.
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Way back in the days before cammers, Jay did a bunch of carb dyno tests.. Pretty much everything with a lot of CFM he could get his hands on.. His friend JC brought a 3bbl over to try. Not sure if it was 950 or 1050. IIRC it was one of the top performers of the group.. The reason for their existence was to get more cfm out of the 4150 architecture..That became unnecessary with the introduction of the 4500. As organized as Jay is, I bet he has those results at his fingertips.
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Nothing wrong with a 3 barrel except finding parts for them, and finding one with the choke still intact. They can run great
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I had a customer bring in a 950. Between us we had another four or five carbs to try including some newer HP stuff. Darn 3 barrel finished on top of the pile....airflow wins
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(https://s5.postimg.cc/lx48i1upz/image.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
This '56 Sedan Delivery, "The Crusin' Missle", was built by our friend JC many years ago, featured in Hot Rod at one time. JC sold it to our friend "Polka" Jimmy probably 25 years ago. Powered by a 460 with a Holley 3 bbl. Jimmy still cruise's it quite a bit, still has the 3 bbl. Unfortunately Neither JC or Jimmy are on the forum or Internet to give us their opinion lol.
I have a couple Holley 3bbl's, tried one at the dragstrip many years ago on my 428 powered bracket car one test day when I was doing some carb testing, if I remember it edged out my 850 double pumper with just a touch more mph. This was in a 12 second car at the time, nothing too wild. I didn't try it on the street at the time, just didn't have time. I plan on possibly testing it again on the 427 tunnel port I have going together, if we use the single 4V intake.
One thing I'll note - my 3bbl carb still had the choke flap and I found that with the throttle open it would suck the choke plate closed, I had to tie it open with a zip tie to the air cleaner stud for my test. The choke plate on the 3bbl is controlled by a short cable on the carb, so it doesn't positively stay open by a "hard" link like a regular Holley. I wouldn't necessarily worry if a Holley 3 bbl you find is missing the choke, if you think your application will start fine without a choke anyway.
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I used to play with them a lot and still have one of each size i am sure the new stuff is more street friendly.The time i last used one was on a well built 351c it was the best carb we tried.When i get the 428 done i am working i will try one yes they used to make squirters for the back i think i still have a new one some place.
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I'll add, be sure if you buy a used one it has the proper vacuum secondary diaphragm with a good and intact diaphragm inside, that's the one part not available new, to my knowledge. There are a couple unscrupulous sellers on eBay who are trimming the available Mopar 6-pack diaphragms with a sissors into a more square shape and calling them NOS at a jacked up price, but it's easy to see they've been modified if you know what an original looks like, and I doubt they seal well. At least if you want to try that don't pay their inflated price. Last I checked gasket kits were still available. The rear metering plate to main body gasket is unique since the boosters are closer together on a 3bbl.
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I used to play with them a lot and still have one of each size i am sure the new stuff is more street friendly...
I'd agree with that, with the array of carbs available now days with 4 corner idle screws, replaceable air bleeds, etc., probably some easier & better choices, but then you wouldn't have the fun of explaining a 3 bbl to people ;)
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I think daytona carbs will still make a new secondary diaphragm.
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I used my 1050 w/choke and a vac/pod and link of of an 1850. My choke works and has a very stiff spring on it. No chance of being sucked closed! Was on a stock 460, c-6, 3.70 gears. Later added a Crane cam and headers. Had the 3 barrel spacer on a marine (cj type) intake. Ran great. I did make my own calibrated metering block from a 3310-1. Have to do another as I use that one on a different carb now. Going to have Drew pretty it up for me.
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Ok thanks everyone. One thing I forgot to ask is if I will have any clearance issues with my 69 shaker scoop air cleaner base?
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The clearance issue with your air cleaner base, I can not answer that question, but the only thing I can think of is if the larger diaphragm housing would interfere with your base ?
wayne is correct, https://www.daytonaparts.com/ has kits with the correct gaskets, not gaskets from other models poorly cut to fit, which is what is sold on ebay. The kits are $60, and the correct secondary diaphragm is also $60, I had called an inquired about the kits & diaphragm, when I was looking to purchase a used one, but ended up getting a NOS one.
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I have also had 950 & 1050 3 barrel Hooleys, although I never tried them on a street car, just my 428 FE Fairmont, back when it had a C6 with a transbrake. Performance wise, it ran as fast as any other big Holley that I tried, but in pit/staging lane drivability was not as crisp or smooth, but was not really a concern on a drag car. As mentioned, finding a carb kit, spare pieces and a secondary diaphragm can be problematic. If you already have a 3 barrel in your possesion, and a kit, I would give it a try, but personally, I would not go out of my way looking for one. I have never seen a 3 barrel with annular boosters, all the 3 barrels that I have seen either had regular downleg boosters (950 version), or in the case of the 1050, simply 2 angled brass tubes on the secondary side. Also, with that large oval secondary throttle plate, and no support in the center, I have to wonder if a good backfire could bend the secondary throttle shaft.
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I have 2 950s and 1 1050/3bbls. My only experience was with the 950cfm on a fairly stock 427 s/o in a flatbottom/V-drive. Carb ran well throughout the RPM range [900 rpm idle to 7000] where power dropped off. No flat spots, hiccups or any other problems. Power was linear as the sec diaphragm opened smoothly as RPM rose so there was no bog or hesitation when it opened. I never got into the sec diaphragm to see what spring was in it but it worked well for that application. If you have the patience to tinker with it it might pay off to be a great working carb for you. It did for me.
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The 1050s are really 1030s. Common error.
Bob
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The 1050s are really 1030s. Common error.
Bob
According to Holley, first they say on page 5 , their listed as 1050 CFM, but then farther down on page 7 under Carburetor Numerical Listing & Parts Guide it list's as 1030 CFM. So what ever it is, it's over a 1,000 CFM... 8)
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjH9IzX5abcAhUHP6wKHb_yCRUQFggqMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mustangtek.com%2FLibrary5%2FPDF%2FHolley73.pdf&usg=AOvVaw26BTHhpZqvt3j8Ow2KzJir
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The Holley 3BBL was created for the 426 Hemi in 1964. The list number was 3085 . Chrysler paid to have the carb developed. After their (typical) exclusivity agreement ended , the 3916 was released to the public and later the 4604. I became almost a "standard" on Big Block Chevy drag cars. Virtually every aftermarket manifold company "notched" the center divider to allow the 3BBL to work. Lots of guys still run them.
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Well I finally got my shop cleaned out to where I could get to my air cleaner assembly today. I placed it on one of my recently aquired Holley 950 3 barrel carbs and just as I suspected it was not even close to fitting. The very big vacuum secondary diaphragm housing interfered by a LOT. Its held off by at least 1/2" at the mounting ring so it's probably 3/4" interference out at the end of the diaphragm housing. Well so much for that idea LOL. Anybody want a couple of rough 950's?
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I'm interested.
rvsprowl att gmail dot commm
Thanks
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Put some pics up. Interested myself.
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You can use the small setup off a 1850 as some one said then you can use the quick change spring kit.A friend did on 1030 with 557 in his pulling truck
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Well I finally got my shop cleaned out to where I could get to my air cleaner assembly today. I placed it on one of my recently aquired Holley 950 3 barrel carbs and just as I suspected it was not even close to fitting. The very big vacuum secondary diaphragm housing interfered by a LOT. Its held off by at least 1/2" at the mounting ring so it's probably 3/4" interference out at the end of the diaphragm housing. Well so much for that idea LOL. Anybody want a couple of rough 950's?
One can purchase air cleaner spacers: https://www.ebay.com/i/232202416050?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=232202416050&targetid=595076423968&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9021663&poi=&campaignid=6451807379&mkgroupid=75897716543&rlsatarget=pla-595076423968&abcId=1141066&merchantid=8224534&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuLWzzseP5AIVD5-fCh0PagT3EAQYBSABEgLEnvD_BwE
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The supercharge prepped 3 brl got me over the 500 hp hump on my y block build, something the 3310-1 could not do, even prepped the same...
I wanted to try it because it is legal in nostalgia, dominators are not..
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Well I finally got my shop cleaned out to where I could get to my air cleaner assembly today. I placed it on one of my recently aquired Holley 950 3 barrel carbs and just as I suspected it was not even close to fitting. The very big vacuum secondary diaphragm housing interfered by a LOT. Its held off by at least 1/2" at the mounting ring so it's probably 3/4" interference out at the end of the diaphragm housing. Well so much for that idea LOL. Anybody want a couple of rough 950's?
One can purchase air cleaner spacers: https://www.ebay.com/i/232202416050?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=232202416050&targetid=595076423968&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9021663&poi=&campaignid=6451807379&mkgroupid=75897716543&rlsatarget=pla-595076423968&abcId=1141066&merchantid=8224534&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuLWzzseP5AIVD5-fCh0PagT3EAQYBSABEgLEnvD_BwE
Already maxed out. I will be running a Blue Thunder 4V with the factory shaker which already puts me 3/4" taller than factory configuration.
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...once you figure that out they are a top notch carb for street/strip applications
I've never heard that. If the 3160 was the hot ticket, Holley would have made a bunch more and would still be making them.
I'll never build another carb'd motor, but based on input from others, a 3160 would not be on my list if I did. They were intended and used for big inch motors where finesse and driveability were of no concern. With poor secondary signal control, they were still outclassed by properly tuned 4150s and 4500s.
That said, I'm only repeating what I've been told by others. I've never played with one. That's how humans progress. Work with what has been proven to succeed and not replicate failure of others.
from what I heard (so take it FWIW), the 4500's replaced the 3 bbls because the 3bbls were more expensive to manufacture, not because of any shortcomings in the 3bbl. I have 2, so I may be biased. Then again, I also have a 4500, so....
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4500’s have other benefits over a 3V. Same with running 2x4’s.
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4500’s have other benefits over a 3V. Same with running 2x4’s.
well yes, but 3V's also have benefits over 4500's (broader choice of manifolds, for one) its more a question of "horses for courses" rather than 1 being "better" than the other. Totally agree on the 2x4's.
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For sure George, for sure.
Point was not to judge by cfm alone.
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...once you figure that out they are a top notch carb for street/strip applications
I've never heard that. If the 3160 was the hot ticket, Holley would have made a bunch more and would still be making them.
I'll never build another carb'd motor, but based on input from others, a 3160 would not be on my list if I did. They were intended and used for big inch motors where finesse and driveability were of no concern. With poor secondary signal control, they were still outclassed by properly tuned 4150s and 4500s.
That said, I'm only repeating what I've been told by others. I've never played with one. That's how humans progress. Work with what has been proven to succeed and not replicate failure of others.
from what I heard (so take it FWIW), the 4500's replaced the 3 bbls because the 3bbls were more expensive to manufacture, not because of any shortcomings in the 3bbl. I have 2, so I may be biased. Then again, I also have a 4500, so....
Back in 1964 Chrysler had Holley make the 1st 950 cfm 3 barrel List #3085 for their Nascar Hemi, but it wasn't till around 67 that Holley released them for public consumption till around 69.
The only thing wrong with the 3 barrel are tunning issues, like any other carb out of the box, issues Holley never addresed, they just moved to the 4500.
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Tunning tips I learnd after I had picked up my 950 3 barrel, as it turns out the correct front metering plate was swapped out, the correct ones are #5616. I tried finding one and couldn't, but I did find a metering plate from the 950 chrysler had made in 64 list #4328.
The tunning issues of the 67 & later 950 & 1050 3 barrels, were not present in the 64 950. During my research It was mentioned why Holley just didn't copy the tunning of the earleir 950, something about meeting smog requirments in 67.
The 67 and later 3 barrels issues were pig rich idle and a bad bog. The fix is to open the PVCR's on the 5615 blocks from .040" to .093" as they are .093" on the 64 blocks. For an example reference, the Holley 850 dbl pumper pri metering blocks PVCR's are .070", the differences between the 850 block and the 950 blocks are the 950 blocks have E-Tubes in the channel and require a slightly larger PVCR to make up for the flow restriction caused by the E-Tubes. Primary tunning and jetting would be as you would any 850, secondary tunning and jetting would be as you would any vaccum secondary carb, like choosing the proper vaccum pod spring tension for opening the secondary.
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The mechanical secondary modification for the 3 barrel and the 3310, consisted of a tube, with a Y at the end. It pressed into the accelerator pump nozzle and extended across, to the back of the air horn. You drilled two holes, one on each side of the air cleaner stud boss, for the Y to feed the secondary's and you had to used the 50cc pump diaphragm. There were kits listed for them and I have seen quite a few 3310's, with those holes in the air horns, over the years but, the Y adapter missing.
When they came on the market, the 3 barrels where fairly cheap (at least in So Cal) and the 3310 was very affordable. I bought 2 of the 3310's for a MT, cross ram manifold, in '68 or '69.
Frank
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The kits not only had the shooter that extended to the secondaries, there were 2 half gears that made the secondaries mechanically open 1 to 1 with the primary, with the vacuum canister removed. I think the kits were a bandade because people couldn't properly tune them.
The mechanical secondary modification for the 3 barrel and the 3310, consisted of a tube, with a Y at the end. It pressed into the accelerator pump nozzle and extended across, to the back of the air horn. You drilled two holes, one on each side of the air cleaner stud boss, for the Y to feed the secondary's and you had to used the 50cc pump diaphragm. There were kits listed for them and I have seen quite a few 3310's, with those holes in the air horns, over the years but, the Y adapter missing.
When they came on the market, the 3 barrels where fairly cheap (at least in So Cal) and the 3310 was very affordable. I bought 2 of the 3310's for a MT, cross ram manifold, in '68 or '69.
Frank