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FE Power Forums => Non-FE Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Qikbbstang on July 21, 2012, 11:13:38 AM

Title: Are Hydrocarbon based refrigerants flamable?
Post by: Qikbbstang on July 21, 2012, 11:13:38 AM
I see they are selling Hydrocarbon based refrigerant agents (sellers often call them "HC-based refrigerant"  as replacements for freon based agents. I've heard propane would work as a cooling agent but that seems pretty obvious of what could be in store if things ever really get hot...Propane is obviously flamable are these other HC based agents likewise?
Title: Re: Are Hydrocarbon based refridgerents flamable?
Post by: Chad D on July 21, 2012, 11:20:53 AM
Without knowing exactly what you're referring to, it's impossible to say for sure.  Propane can indeed be used as a substitute for some refrigerants, but you'd better be damned sure you don't have any leaks, or you're in for a nasty surprise!
Title: Here's some names of HC Freon Replacements
Post by: Qikbbstang on July 21, 2012, 11:41:57 AM

I saw some stuff about a 500F flash point for the HC stuff and I know freon is dam close to Halon a outstanding extinguishing agent so no way freon burns.

SUPER FREEZE, Refrigerant R12A   - R12 Freon replacement

Super-Freeze 22a Refrigerant - R22 Freon Alternative

Super-Freeze 408a refrigerant a R408a Freon replacement

Super-Freeze 407c refrigerant - R407c Freon replacement

Title: Re: Are Hydrocarbon based refrigerants flamable?
Post by: Cyclone Joe on July 21, 2012, 03:35:12 PM
BB, yes they will.  As stated n section 6 of the MSDS sheets, "As with most flammable products, hydrocarbon refrigerants demand basic common sense during use."  Oddly enough the original R-12, R-22 wouldnt burn.  Below are the MSDS sheets for some leisurely reading.

SUPER FREEZE, Refrigerant R12A   Autoignition at 1246F
http://superfreezerefrigerant.com/MSDS/Super-Freeze%2012a%20MSDS.pdf

R12 Freon will not burn
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:2yXI21CCuM0J:www.hudsontech.com/wp-content/themes/hudson/pdfs/msds/R-12/DUPONT_R-12_4-19-04.pdf+Freon+12+msds&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiR-8eABlY9fXCaDKDVIdPbkJDqRXBqYHMSJjv_HlO8aDmvvVKTWptRhGTAUZ2hwN0-XY_HyOfYzl8Hqe_u1cjFF5PZApyRhHwWWeApTRrtHU62WRj-nR3YM4GgtQEzdFTIOHWY&sig=AHIEtbTFhBsNz5_ksvM9PtbPSBdGj-uHrA

Super-Freeze 22a Refrigerant: Autoignition at 873F
http://superfreezerefrigerant.com/MSDS/Super-Freeze%2022a%20MSDS.pdf

R22 Freon will not burn
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:O85BGnyOu2EJ:msds.dupont.com/msds/pdfs/EN/PEN_09004a2f80007210.pdf+Freon+22+A+flash+point&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjFN-_F8NDFgRi5RzN3a7r7mC1OWeXZMnMLgmo0VsKgy62wNtdHSEwlrie2FBTmLDVUGSoxrFa60oJ6E6iqD4bcMEthfMBS_u1ARkFGr-DgZA-ICTqRILdxwzkSqx4hDorrj1YD&sig=AHIEtbS-7oaj90S0jGmV2_rk8G3WB2lhBg

Super-Freeze 408a refrigerant a R408a Freon replacement autoignition at 873F
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:be9wAoA83BIJ:superfreezerefrigerant.com/MSDS/Super-Freeze%2520408a%2520MSDS.pdf+Super-Freeze+408a+MSDS&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjnVSB8oaLsdqHwkad6mI6GsjHC9cBM2qWjX_QInzrV3UpJfbOogpyZF33jBmcE-_AhHoVeKxvM6zCRDym2UjJN5WwrAOItEaH6d7tUKx0URm6fhv-2f-1tr6ojyWpAw53f9huT&sig=AHIEtbTxqx_rkqw4CCH0lYepXPlvZRWcIA

Super-Freeze 407c refrigerant - R407c Freon replacement autoignition at 873F
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:l7zVBRHrJ4YJ:superfreezerefrigerant.com/MSDS/Super-Freeze%2520407c%2520MSDS.pdf+Super-Freeze+407c+msds&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjWHZ9vr46IKChDMwoCqqnk-t10lH66vykiiiesoPMY6aevf81IaCQGnLQKaFFUC18mnWHYKv27I-7eLhoZtnK9Q3rvp_FucTMiCtcJmZSxpgHpnEksWzSzcSixEDBf0xQYOn8f&sig=AHIEtbQ3ak3N2bW60sttuyUNoTqD38yPBA
Title: In retrospect if one used the R12 HC Based agent in a vehicle and managed to
Post by: Qikbbstang on July 21, 2012, 09:05:44 PM
to rupture a line/connector in a crash it could go off just like a propane which auto ignites @878F. I doubt they have the rotten egg stink stuff in the HC refrigerants, if so things could get hairy if there were ever a serious leak through an evaporator in to the cab of a vehicle or room.
Title: Re: Are Hydrocarbon based refrigerants flamable?
Post by: Cyclone Joe on July 22, 2012, 03:11:50 PM
BB,

Please go back and read the MSDS for R-12.  Its autoignition temperature is greater than 1378F, and it states under flash point that it will not burn.  The R12a is a different story and a different animal as it will burn.

Joe
Title: Re: Are Hydrocarbon based refrigerants flamable?
Post by: sjmodels on August 09, 2012, 07:52:29 PM
Many of these refrigerants will give off toxic gas when exsposed to fire some include fosgene (sp) known as mustard gas used as a wepon in WW1 so be carefull!
Title: Joe FYI my title said RC12 HC based agent (meaning a R12 replacement made
Post by: Qikbbstang on August 11, 2012, 04:42:17 PM
with hydrocarbon gas.) 
           The HC was not all that clear and easy to overlook but if one overlooks the HC part it could be a blast..LOL
Title: Re: Are Hydrocarbon based refrigerants flamable?
Post by: Heo on August 17, 2012, 04:10:16 PM
Quote from: sjmodels on August 09, 2012, 07:52:29 PM
Many of these refrigerants will give off toxic gas when exsposed to fire some include fosgene (sp) known as mustard gas used as a wepon in WW1 so be carefull!

Mustard gas and fosgene is two completly
different gases. Inded dangerous both of them
Dont clean with brake cleaner or trikloretylen
things you are going to weld then you get
fosgene smells like freshly cut hay. Nock out
your lungs and you cant breath and you die
Title: Re: Are Hydrocarbon based refrigerants flamable?
Post by: drdano on August 17, 2012, 05:42:58 PM
Phosgene is pretty scary stuff.  http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm 
Title: Re: Are Hydrocarbon based refrigerants flamable?
Post by: Heo on August 17, 2012, 06:03:27 PM
10 times as poisonus as clorine gas if i remeber right