FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: JamesonRacing on February 12, 2018, 10:49:49 AM
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Byron Raceway announced that diapers are required for all cars running faster than 10.0 this year, and 11.0 next year. Any consensus on best practice for attaching a diaper to a FE engine in a Fairlane chassis?
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I'm watching.....
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ME TOO.....
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1. Make/fab the welded in crossmember under the pan removable.
2. DRE makes a Kevlar custom for $600, won,t burn on headers.
3. I got a free used burned hole $125 universal Jegs, wife repaired/sewed hole, its nylon, can not touch pipes.
3. Its shaped like a bread pan, fexible like t-shirt, pain to handle, fit it under the motor mounts on the side, holds it away from pipes, mostly.
4. Four straps , water pump bolts front, header bolts rear
5. Install removable crossmember and push up against pan.
6. Fab/bend 1 " flat stock to follow contour off pan in back, fasten to rear pan bolts to hold it away from pipes and steering cross link.
8. Wrapped the two pipes in the area that cross under the pan in rear, get the good stuff.
9. Ran last season, looks like a black pan. So far so good.
10. 67 Fairlane, 2 ' Hookers, C6, stock suspension, newer Milodon pan thats notched more around cross member
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It's coming for all Box/NoBox cars in the near future. We're paying $100 bonus to winners in Box or NoBox that use an engine containment device. Encouraged for 7.50 and faster 1/8 mile
BTW - consider a pan vs a diaper. Lots of cars are opting for pans. I'm going to have to look at the wive's car - 351C with the Hookers would be a bitoch to get a diaper installed into.
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I know its about diapers but I have yet to see a ford anything scatter at the track! the other 2 companies I have seen blow up
a lot.
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I know its about diapers but I have yet to see a ford anything scatter at the track! the other 2 companies I have seen blow up
a lot.
Although we all know FE’s never blow up ;) It’s a NHRA rule for vehicles quicker than 9.99 and certain classes. It’s mainly only been pushed at the National & Divisional events since it was rolled out, but the last couple years I’ve been seeing reports of more tracks requiring them at all their events. I would guess at some point it will become universally required for everything 9.99 & quicker. NHRA required them right from the start at our ET Finals also since that’s considered a divisional event.
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NHRA does not enforce this for FE powered cars in Stock & Super Stock at National events. I know someone who runs a FE powered SS car and he basically told me this. To be honest I don't think they enforce it for any of those cars no matter what brand. All you need to do is to look at starting line photos from last weeks Winter Nationals. None of the fast SS or S class cars have diapers. They realize it is basically impossible for these shock tower cars to have room for these stupid diapers. I know it is all about safety but you simply can't put these things on every car. We all don't have chassis cars or SBC Camaros....
We've raced these cars for 50 years with parts that are way less quality than they are now but now all of the sudden there is an issue. IMHO the only cars this should be required on is power adder type cars. Very few fast naturally aspirated cars oil the track ever.
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Oil downs are of course the issue. Yet, one can't expect a no power adder gas powered engine to explode like the upper class cars. Heck, just note the hundreds of body slammers at any national event making maybe a 1,000 runs in total over the course of the the event. More likely a auto tranny blows than an engine, I say!
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At a recent NMCA event trannies were grenading all over the place. That was the source of the frequent oil downs
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I've contemplated putting a diaper on my car this winter since the motor is out. Only problem is there is NO room for it around the front crossmember. The pan is too close to allow the diaper to fit. Plus the deep front sump and the fact the typical diaper is made for a flat pan it won't really fit well. I have thoughts of trying to see if it fit, but I know the outcome already.
I'm not ready to cut the front crossmember tube out of my car to get the diaper to fit.
Typically they want 9.90 cars and quicker to have them around here.
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If i did it, you guys with all your skills/abilities/knowledge can also.
At first, I bitched and moaned also, put finally gave it some thought/trail error figured it out. Read my solution above. I can post pictures is needed.
I,ve seen the pans installed , that seems like a nice deal, drop a few bolts, drops down. Specs are fairly liberal. Make a pattern, build or have it build.
Many tracks/organizations are requiring them as it cuts cleanup time/costs/crashes.
For us, to speculate a eng won,t fail seems like a risky approach, and what off the quality off the eng/car in the other lane ?
FE in a unit body shock tower car, always a challenge, just one more, so far we have done a good job!
Good discussion, Thanks, Bob M
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I agree that both NHRA & the tracks enforcement of this rule has been uneven, but it is being enforced at many events & tracks, and I think the handwriting is on the wall. I’ve mentioned in the past that my racing buddy stepped up his ‘67 Mustang a couple years ago with a 700hp stroked Windsor and is solidly in the 9’s now. He had the local racing chassis shop get a custom diaper made while the car was there getting the other updates he had done at the time. I realize it’s a Windsor and not a FE, but it’s still a stock chassis shock tower car. The diaper pretty much fits the oil pan like a glove. I don’t know who made it and he doesn’t remember so I’ll have to ask the shop next time I’m there. I thought I had pictures on my phone, but I can’t find them right now. As has been noted though a Mustang/Cougar has a removable crossmember, and it’s easy to space it down a little if needed. My friend had it done though because NHRA is definitely enforcing it at our ET Finals. I know a few of our local stock/super stock racers have installed them too since many use the same chassis shop, but I haven’t asked what conversations, if any, they’ve had with Tech. I’ll have to start checking around. I agree though that Super Stock cars can be tricky since they usually have extreme oil pans and front chassis mods. I’m not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out that this stuff really varies around the country and from track to track. I’ve probably seen at least 3 tracks on Facebook this winter announce they will be enforcing the rule this year, and like Jameson said, with Byron’s announcement it looks like the cut-off may be heading to 10.99 next.
(https://s5.postimg.org/bsay4fw6f/FF493019-5_E42-43_D1-_A6_BE-_FE729_FDBDF3_F.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/xrhcrnd0j/)
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I have to admit, in over 40 years of drag racing, I`ve oiled down the track a few times, twice the Fairmont was sliding around in its own oil/water while engine/trans/rearend pieces were bouncing off the track surface. You run stuff hard, shit happens. My problem is that NHRA typicallygoes overboard, like they did with header collector tethers, and mandate factory produced SFI stickered parts. Many Super Stockers have huge oil pans, often with the steering running thru the middle, not to mention large tube headers, with a stock subframe, how would you adress stuff like that? My FE in the Fairmont uses an oil pan that is notched to fit (barely) around the steering rack, and the headers are almost touching the block and oil pan in several locations. When you have maybe 1/16" between hot metal parts, how the hell are you supposed to install a 1/2" thick diaper. If this crap goes nationwide, I guess I will be saving some dollars are just keep running low 10s. A full tube chassis car is totally different than a stock front chassis car. One size DON`T fit all!!!
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Oil downs are of course the issue. Yet, one can't expect a no power adder gas powered engine to explode like the upper class cars.
I have personally seen - and helped clean up - slower cars puke guts all over the place. Had a race friend that built a maybe 500 HP NA 347 that made 4 passes and came back from #5 dripping with the block split down the middle. The worst ones are not the ones that throw up in one spot, it's the leakers that run 660' plus all the way down to the turnout - another 2000' - dripping oil. That's a lot of sweeping and bags of rice hulls. And down time.
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End result the Tracks will suffer
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I don't have the newest nhra book yet. but my question is how fast before they have to be sfi approved? I was internet shopping and their not bad priced but they get in that 400 dollar range awful fast
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TIRC, the kevlar stuff is usually SFI and more $$$. General Reg 8.1, refers to classes not Speed or ET. For ET Bracket/non Class Specific - 4.50 and slower 1/8 mile, the devices are "permitted" and not "required". Quicker than 4.50 (Advanced ET) is required.
ET racers don't need a rule book, go to NHRARacer.com and select Rules
http://promod.nhra.com/userfiles/file/Tech/2018_NHRA_Rulebook_E.T.%20Section.pdf
If you are a Class racer - have to buy the book. If I get time and remember, I will look at my 2017 book. Reminds me, need to call Division and re-up damn quick.
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Does anyone have a picture of a diaper on their FE ?? Really like a fairlane chassis
Trying to figure out the motor mounts and deep front oil pan
Thanks Russ
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I been useing the racers warehouse universal diper with replaceable wick pads. The strap brackets work out just fine for me.
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Just my opinion but this is one of the reasons street racing is making a comeback.
NHRA has made it to expensive to race anymore.
I have to agree with the safety rules because some of the cars raced in the 60's and 70's were death trap's.
However there has to be a nice center point that takes safety into account along with cost otherwise people are just going to find the nearest street to find a race.
I know I am in the minority but this is how I feel about the subject.
Greg
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On my 64 Fairlane there are two header tubes that cross under the pan between the steering and bellhousing, these almost touch the pan, steering and bellhousing. A .040" thick shield right against the pan would still be a tight fit and do nothing if a LeMans rod wanted freedom.
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Its cheap if keeps you off the wall or on your lid slicks and oil dont mix think how much it will cost you to start over.
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Interesting thread. Being a newby, not having raced since the 70s, some of the Gasser races I attend, started posting on their webpage/FB that a diaper would be required. I purchased the cheap Jegs strap style diaper. As mentioned, I could not install at all without complete tight contact between headers and oil pan. The material used appears to be the same material that is used to fabricate skydiving parachute containers (Im a parachute rigger and former skydiver) and without doubt, will burn and melt. I suppose that even with a burn hole the diaper would collect a majority of the oil that may be blown from the engine but the material also smells like its burning while its melting. As it turned out, none of the tracks so far are enforcing the diaper rule, but it seems to come up every time I travel to a new track. I think that only a custom made diaper for a rear or front sump oil pan made with fireproof material would actually work, and seeing as how the "HUGE" payouts for Outlaw gasser racing don't exist, Ill race till they tell me I can't...that's my plan and Im sticking to it....
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We run a cheap jegs diaper. Got it on sale under $100. it just mounts to 4 corner bottom header bolts with long straps and has a Velcro adjuster in the front. Make sure you trim/tie back the excess straps because if not they will burn on the headers. We run a deep pan and have no issues.
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Any pictures ?
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>Just my opinion but this is one of the reasons street racing is making a comeback.
BS - it's not making a comeback, it's still there - worse maybe thanks to Street outlaws - and it's still done by idiots.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2019/05/27/3-men-charged-street-racing-crash-killed-8-year-old-girl-pleasant-grove
>Really like a fairlane chassis
Same as my Falcon from 66-70. No way I can see if you're running headers, it'll have to be a fabricated pan. Unless you run something like shorty headers, cut the lower cross member out of the car and run motor plates. You might get away with a aluminized Kevlar diaper with coated long tube headers, but I kinda doubt it'd last long. Even on my 351C there are two pipes that really hug the pan tight. That's with a 351C and 1 7/8 tubes. Bigger motor, bigger clearance issues. Our rule is 7.50 (1/8 mile) and faster, for now I'm staying at 7.60. I'd like the car to run in the high 6s so over winter I'll be looking into fabbing up a catch pan.
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Jesus, bunch of clucking hens here. WWW.RUSSLERII.com Russel will make a CUSTOM diaper for YOUR pan, and it will fit. If you think having shock towers is tough, try having a steering drag link run through your pan.
A lot of whining about NHRA and rules, but lets face it, it's about safety. Tracks already have a limited time of operation, and who likes spending there day at the track waiting for a oil down to be cleaned up?
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Jesus, bunch of clucking hens here. WWW.RUSSLERII.com Russel will make a CUSTOM diaper for YOUR pan, and it will fit.
A lot of whining about NHRA and rules, but lets face it, it's about safety.
Yeah, like perfectly good seat belts that have to be replaced every 2 years? Or header collector tethers? Some rules are good, some are just BS.
And that Russler website sucks. I can't even see or read the "Templates for measurement" page. Then I thought I'd go to the "Pictures" page to get a look at their work, and what their diapers looked like. Gee, not a single picture of anything they make....just pictures of cars. Really? They can't post just ONE picture of their product?
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i also think nhra dont have clue in 55 years i seen one car lose a collector or have a scattershield rechecked what can go bad on one seat belts every two years also.A diaper or a pan i have seen a few get in trouble in their own oil No Hot Rods Allowed has forgot who made them all the little guys.The ones that still keep the local tracks open.
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Doug, the problem with getting pictures of his diapers is, he sends them out, and then most do not take a picture of it on the engine. I have one, if you would like to see it installed?
As for NHRA rules, chances are someone was either hurt, or killed, and a rule had to be put into place. Yeah most seat belts are more than fine after 2 years. But what about the guy that doesn't own a enclosed trailer, or garage, and just lets his stuff sit out in the Southern sun? NHRA has to draw a line somewhere. Some guys do the bare minimum, and wear shorts and flip flops if it was legal. Guys like myself, and HEMI Joel, have gone the other way, and made sure we have good safety equipment. At the end of the day, I want to have fun, but if something happens, I also want to make it back home in one piece.
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I wonder how much money NHRA takes in for SFI stickers ?
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I doubt any - I assume manufacturers have to pay for the certification and/or testing from SFI. They are an independent organization. What they will do is disqualify you at a big race or bracket finals and dock points from your team if your belts are out or they see some other violation. Ostensibly to keep a level play field. There are a selection of a-hole tech inspectors. I had a guy tell me once, referring to the required .030 aluminum shielding that separates the driver from the trunk compartment with rear battery install, that if he thought the rear bulkhead/shield would leak if he filled the car with water and turned it up on the ass end he'd not sticker the car.
And I don't mind any of the rules, personally. When I bought the dragster - before I ever bought a part to build a motor or make it move - I spent big $ on all SFI double layer suit, arm restraints, NexGen "HANS" type unit, enclosed helmet, gloves and whatnot. Even in my 7.60 car I wear a single layer jacket and run current belts. Things can change in an instant and the faster you go the shorter "instant" becomes.
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We were at the track and a guy in our mustang club was told he couldn’t run his car as his belts were out of date. He still had the stock seatbelts in the car so we unbolted the aftermarket belt and they let him run with the 25 + yr old belts. Now this was a fox body and not all that fast but the point is the same
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Remember, sanctioned tracks carry insurance and the insurance for even just a TestNTune is big $$$. Haven't seen a bill in a while but its $750~1000 usually for a Friday/Saturday deal. If they don't follow the sanction rules, even in what seem like dumb situations, they can hang their financial ass out on the line. Outlaw or un-sanctioned tracks can act however they think they can get away with. Guy that got killed in Houston a few years back had a really fast car and pretty much no safety equipment in the thing.
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I hear that excuse often about expensive Insurance but have never seen what it actually cost , after all everyone signs a waiver before you enter that it's your own responsibility and not the track so how much would insurance actually cost ?
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I'd rather err on the side of safety; it's not worth losing my life over. While my car doesn't require it (yet), I don't like racing it with the factory belts and no rollbar, but I do. That'll all change later this year though.
The diaper doesn't cover oil coming out the headers, and for that reason, I'm seriously considering running the exhaust at least to the rear axle, in the event something goes wrong internally. I don't know how much a 6' section of 4" pipe would hurt exhaust flow, but I wouldn't think it would be too bad. I REALLY don't get the guys who put the exhaust outlet right in front of the rear tires. That's just begging for a problem.
Cars and racing are just dangerous, period. Anytime I take somebody new to the races, I tell them that anything can happen at any time, so you always have to be on the lookout. People need to understand that, even as spectators. You can't be paranoid going through life, but you should always be aware of everything that's going on around you. That attitude has kept me out of more accidents on the street than I can count.
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I have witnessed two people die at the local track ( Kilkare) One door car that the guy had a heart attack and literally drove all the way to the end of track straight into the barriers , could not let out of the gas or nothing just wide open to a big crash …. the other guy was a motorcycle racer that the throttle stuck wide open , his kill switch and teather did not work or function ( so much for tech ) and he was trying to pull off spark plug wires when he went past us (we were pitted just past the time ticket booth ) and then smashed into the big barrier's , he never tried to steer towards the grass and bail out with his full gear , he left a wife and two small children forever that day . I was also at Indy the year Elmer Tritt (sp?) TF Bike racer and Blaine Johnson TF driver were killed but was not watching either of those races but the cross wind was terrible that weekend , racing is dangerous
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I hear that excuse often about expensive Insurance but have never seen what it actually cost , after all everyone signs a waiver before you enter that it's your own responsibility and not the track so how much would insurance actually cost ?
In the mid 2000s with IHRA it was about $750 or so for a Friday night/Saturday bracket race. From their REQUIRED insurance carrier. We are now days with NHRA and they may be able to shop it for better pricing. I haven't asked, not involved in the financial end of track ops. I'll ask about this coming 2 day event if I think about it. I can say that racers have NO IDEA how much money has been spent before the gate even swings open. Whats this damn gate fee thing, run cards should be $20, should pay back to the 3rd round and the track is a cash cow. It ain't so. We need 33 cars in the eliminator just to cover the payout for Super Pro, pays to the semis. Updates to the track computers this spring cost $7500.
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This is a good post with many ways at looking at safety i am glad every one on here is thinking about it. Looking back when we was kids a friend bought a 440 six pack road runner it would run 150 with six of us in it dam lucky we are still all here,
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I've seen what can happen at 88 MPH on the strip, other than going back in time. One broken ladder bar mount wadded up a nice green Firebird around it's 8 point roll bar. The Falcon feels big and safe, like racing a bus. It can still hurt. The dragster is just sitting in a nest of pipe with my butt about 4" off the track. AT 125+ if anything gets out of whack, it's hit the chute lever and the kill switch right in front of the lever then just wait for it to stop. We've lost a few people on track and I've been there for all of them. All so far had roots in some medical condition. That doesn't make it any easier. We take the track pics as part of how we help the local track and I can't describe how difficult it is to look through a set of time trial pictures and see someone's last photograph.
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Try 2. Does anyone have a picture of a diaper on their FE ?? Really like a fairlane chassis
Trying to figure out the motor mounts and deep front oil pan
Thanks Russ
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Try 2. Does anyone have a picture of a diaper on their FE ?? Really like a fairlane chassis
Trying to figure out the motor mounts and deep front oil pan
Thanks Russ
I’ve been trying to get some pictures, but we’ve had two rainouts so far this year, and also schedule conflicts where the stock/super stock cars & some of the other faster cars have had divisional & big $ races elsewhere, which has been drawing the faster cars away from local competition. I’ll keep trying.
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Thanks Kevin