FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: fryedaddy on October 03, 2017, 04:54:31 PM
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test fitting a intake with the intake to head gaskets in place,what is the normal gap at the front and china walls.my cork front gasket slips in and out easily with slack,is this normal or should the gap be smaller
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Before you do anything you might want to take a look at how the ports match up (manifold / head) with a bore scope. "Maybe'?? your intake needs a trimming...JMO
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NEW BBM HEADS,NEW RPM INTAKE,GAP IS 1/16 BIGGER THAN THE CORK GASKET
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Shine a light down the 4 corner bolt holes and see if the intake's holes line up well with the head's. That or try and start the 4 corner bolts by hand.
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ALL THE BOLTS LINE UP FINE AND WILL SCREW IN BY HAND,THE VALVE COVER RAIL LINES UP GOOD,AND THE INTAKE FITS AGAINST THE HEADS GOOD TOO.IM JUST WONDERING HOW MUCH FRONT GAP IS NORMAL AND HOW MUCH IS TOO MUCH.
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Then your good to go. Use Right Stuff or another silicone sealant instead of the corks. Or corks and sealant.
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Then your good to go. Use Right Stuff or another silicone sealant instead of the corks. Or corks and sealant.
thank you Bob,i have a tube of right stuff on its way,i should get it tomorrow.
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Make sure the head gasket tabs are not holding the intake off the heads.
But this is why I don't mess with cork end gaskets. This is all too common with aftermarket combinations and it's just not worth the time to fit cork when you can lay a bead of silicone down and roll with it.
Skip the Right Stuff though.....I've had porosity leaks from that stuff. Barry uses Motorcraft TA-31 and I use Dow Corning 732.
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No secret I am not a silicone fan, but I have not tried some of the new stuff. I will say that I do not like Right Stuff. IMHO it's messy glue that often has internal bubbles.
The thing that gets me is "too much space" I have never had that issue. Especially with something like a Felpro end seal and an RPM, in fact, every RPM intake I have has needed to be trimmed and I even mix and match cork gaskets to get the crush I want.
I am not sure what you are using, Mr Gasket gaskets are nice, but I toss their end seals usually. More often than not, the issue is not enough space after a cut deck and heads.
I'd look close for the cause, now, if the ports line up and the angles to the head look correct, head gasket tabs aren't hanging the intake, certainly cannot argue that the end rail cork won't work, they need to be compressed, but I just haven't see that
As far as time to fit, it's all a trade, time to fit, or time to dry, depends on your schedule, neither way is a free ride.
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I had my fill with Right Stuff. It is gooey and is like working with never-seize or machinist dye.....you'll end up with it from head to toe by the time you're done. It also let me down once, so never again.....
The Dow Corning 732 isn't gooey but is very easy to use. It fills voids and is easily smoothed and shaped without getting it all over you. Its very oil resistant, and on an FE, it will be dry enough to use by the time you get the intake on, pushrods and rockers on, carbs on, water crossover on, etc.
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Drop in the distributor before you go any further. That's first priority. If this isn't a race deal don't worry too much about port matching unless there is a gross mismatch. If the valve cover rails match up and the distributor drops in, then you can look at port matching. If the valve cover rails line up now, you can't take much off the intake to correct any port mismatch.
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i had used the right stuff the last time and i did see bubbles in it when i removed the intake.i have the mr gasket 202a intake gasket.the cork seemed thin to me.i have some 732.i will give it a try.everything looks good.i was just concerned when i saw how thin the corks were in the mr gasket kit
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I use a bead of silicone - black high temp - on all china walls. Take a look at the gap first, then lay a bead a little taller making sure it's the right height where it meets the intake gaskets. Let it set up for a bit, about 20~30 minutes. Then smear a see through swipe of silicone on the intake ends and set the intake straight down on the heads. Guide pins or studs will help that. Snug the bolts a little more than hand tight, then finish torque about 24 hours later after the RTV sets up. Done carefully, I never had leaks nor is RTV accidentally introduced into the engine. That is critical because RTV will go kinda plastic in hot oil and end up in places you'd rather it not. (shout out to those that use a whole tube to install an oil pan LOL).
If the gap is much more than 1~1 1/2 of a cork gasket, better think about a Plan B because I'd not be keen about having a big tall bead stay in place. The AFD heads on my 351C place the intake about 1/2" above the china walls - I make an aluminum pan to cover the space.
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I routinely have to lay beads about 1/2" tall on some of my CHI headed small blocks. No problems whatsoever. You can see it on this build here:
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/1702-700hp-can-be-yours-by-building-a-boss-style-stroker/
Look about 3/4 way down the page and there's a front shot of the completed engine.
I've had factory Tunnel Wedges on Pond blocks, where the front face of the intake actually sat mostly behind the front china wall on the block. If it weren't for silicone, I would have had to order blocks of cork, then shape it down. I can't justify spending that much time on it when I can lay silicone down and be done.
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Brent,i saw the thick silicone in the pic.my gap is tiny compared to that one.im sure i will be fine with it. thanks
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Has your block been decked? You will see the machine marks if the china walls were cut too much trying to match the deck cut.
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Has your block been decked? You will see the machine marks if the china walls were cut too much trying to match the deck cut.
no decked block.my core was in such good shape,the crank did not need to be turned,the block did not need boring.66 428 out of a tbird.no machine work other than oil mods has been done.after seeing the pic of brents engine,im sure my gap is fine.its only slightly bigger than the mr,gasket cork ends,and they seem to be thin and puny.
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I've never had a problem with The Right Stuff out of the caulking tube. Never tried the aerosol version but suspect it could cause porosity. Also never had any luck with Silicone. As for the corks, they can work if glued into place on the block but need to be thick enough and obviously, yours aren't. Good possibility a different brand would work but the painless fix is a bead of your preferred sealer.
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Funny this post has come up. When I put my 390 back together a few years ago had the same issue with the intake gap.
(https://i.imgur.com/YHsbBur.jpg)
Decided to try the OEM cork and see what happens despite my engine building friend who advised a nice bead of goo on both ends. Well after a few years of the intake leeching oil all over the place it's coming off and I'm going the bead of goo route.
***edit***
Holy cow that photo is huge.. sorry. looking for a new photo hosting site since photobucket decided to end it's free service. I'll try to get that resized.
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If the block and/or heads have been decked and faced, it is when getting the intake faced.
Whether you do that or not, I have heat luck with two or three rows carfully applying silicine piled up to fill the gap,then gently set the intake down.
Don't gob too much on corners that can block oil drain back.
Then smooth of with fingers.
Usually use gray or black stuff.
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I've never had a problem with The Right Stuff out of the caulking tube. Never tried the aerosol version but suspect it could cause porosity. Also never had any luck with Silicone.
Ditto what Dale said. I think the aerosol can is what causes the small bubbles and porosity.
And Scooter, that picture is the perfect size on my screen. No need to resize it.
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i got it back together and started it up.so far no leaks or smoke.i ended up using the mr gasket 202A intake gasket and the right stuff in the caulking gun on the end rails.knock on wood so far so good
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i am so happy with these new heads and intake.i got to drive it today,awesome power,great idle,crisp throttle response,very happy.im pretty sure it sealed up good too.
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You people got nuttin' going on ;D
4V Funnelweb
(http://raceabilene.com/misc/351cNotes/2015/AFD4V/Fweb4V_A.jpg)
Torker w/gaskets
(http://raceabilene.com/misc/351cNotes/2015/AFD4V/TorkerA.jpg)
Tunnel Ram w/gaskets
(http://raceabilene.com/misc/351cNotes/2015/AFD4V/TRamA.jpg)
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Chris, I think you bought the wrong heads ;D ;D ;D
Seriously, I have NEVER seen a gap that big...
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Poor man's Air Gap. 8) Or double air gap!
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YIKES! I wouldn't even attempt sealer on that gap! Darn nice shop though!
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Heres a thought?
Make a spacer 1/8-3/16-1/4 (alum) or what ever and goop it and pin it to the block and then goop the manifold. You can use the same spacer for both manifolds if you do some measuring? Save on the goop and good luck.
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Forget this:
(https://s26.postimg.org/4vmunozeh/71_Ga_Ba_Bik_CL._SL1500.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
You need:
(https://s26.postimg.org/y9il3a249/spray-foam-window-insulation.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Poor man's Air Gap. 8) Or double air gap!
A couple of the EMC entries where I moved the heads inboard had gaps like that. Made aluminum spacers. Goop/spacer/goop...
And a sleeve for the distributor to live in
On the Cleveland you just make a flat plate to seal off the valley.
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Yep. Only had some .030 sheet, will remake it in .125 plate over winter. Was a bit hard to glue the floppy edges.
(http://raceabilene.com/misc/351cNotes/2015/AFD4V/351CValleyCover.jpg)