FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Member Projects => Topic started by: stuart olson on August 08, 2017, 08:51:36 PM
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Hi all. Working on building a shoestring budget 445 for my 75 F250 supercab. So its going to be a bit more sleepy and a bit less sexy than what seems to be the norm here. Should still be about double the factory rating for a 360. So I think it will be fun enough for a daily driver. The recipe currently stands at mirror 105 block, ported C6AE-R heads, CJ valves, ported 428 CJ intake, recurved duraspark, MSD box, and Sanderson "427FE" headers. My current dilemmas are figuring out an apropriate carb, cam, and rocker combination. The guys I am working with are thinking something in the realm of that Comp XE262H.
More important than all that at the moment is my shops lack of torqe plates for an FE. They see so few FE's that they dont want to buy them cause it will take forever to make the money back. So I either have to eat the cost to buy them or see if anyone within about 350 miles of Mandan North Dakota has a set that can be rented. So far no luck on that front but if anyone knows of a set in the territory let me know.
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Everything sounds great....
one thought tho, forget the local shop. Deal with someone that knows a lil more about fe's. Have them spec a custom cam for what you are doing while you are at it.
Rockers? for a mild build use a mild setup, stock is fine. If concerned, endstands up the durability a good bit but probably aren't required for what you are describing.
Carb size? 750cfm would be ideal.
If you are literally looking for a stock replacement you could go lower. I may catch some flak for this, but if it's a daily driver that never sees the high side of 3000rpms, you could go as low as 600cfm without any real issues. I'd suggest an older 1850 or 3310 carburetor, they are pretty darn awesome as is.
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Yeah the stock rockers with end stands would be fine but the shop guys were bitchin about getting the valve lash right with solid rockers. So I have been fishing around for a budget adjustable set up to appease the gods. Might still be cheaper to pay them an extra hour labor to dick with it.
The local shop has a good reputation and is the only shop around with a dyno. Ive heard that there is a shop with a dyno in Minot but its farther away and work never takes me by their door. Might be that a shop down in the Twin City's does them but its a heck of a drive. Hate to ship it to a shop where I will never meet the guy.
As to custom cam... everone and their brother seems to hold them to their chest like precious diamonds. If someone has a suggestion I am all ears.
Power goals are something above 400HP. Really want to hit 425.
The budget currently stands at about 5 grand. So going roller might be a bridge too far. Especially if I have to buy my own torque plates.
Thinking about maybe going with a Quick Fuel 650 mechanical secondary. Truck is stick so at that carb size it shouldn't bog at anything above about 1800 RPM.
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JMO.....at that CID I wouldn't use anything less than a CC 268H .Its a very good "little" cam...I would also lean towards a vacuum secondary carb..Your basic Holley 3310 with a sec metering plate added is a very simple tuneable carb and very easy to get...
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I like it, a few recommendations
1 - Talk them into getting all the valve stem heights correct, or at least matching and use the hyd rockers. They are light, and set and forget. Much better than any affordable adjustable for your application. It really is an easy thing and much better for your use in the long run
2 - I also think the cam is too small but could be OK with the right compression ratio because of the worked heads. FWIW, I run a Bullet 282S copy with 112 LSA in mine and it is likely a little rowdy, but only a little, but it's also a lot more cam. It really depends on your compression, but with a zero decked motor, and a street timing curve for a heavy vehicle that I would recommend no more than 9.4:1 static and likely 9.25 would be a better match if you decide to run the XE262H. That cam, if the heads are ported well, should be OK for use and if the porting is good, should hit your number, but another option would be go a bit bigger. I'd rather see you in something like a 270H and 9.5:1 compression, zero deck. FYI - if you aren't careful, you can get to 10:1 quickly with parts choices for a 445 and then you need a different cam choice.
3 - A nice new cheapo 3310 750 vac sec would be a great match, or a 735 CJ carb, super, especially with your build, but more expensive. I don't like the Street Avengers, mostly for transition circuit issues. Likely a QFT equiv would work well too, but I haven't spent any time with them
In the end though, great build, watch compression and it should be a super truck build. Your goals are realistic and my guess is, if the porting is good, it'll be a rocket
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On the subject of heads. Does this seem like a reasonable porting job? All I did on the intake side was remove the rocker bolt bumps and clean up the casting flash a little.
On carburators. I know a mechanical secondary is an odd choice for the application. A fair number of people out here do it because of high speed limits and headwinds. When you are driving a dent into a 20mph headwind while going 80 at about 3000 RPM you are going to be in the secondarys. And the secondarys on a mecanical secondary carburator seem to be much easier to set up like primarys so your fuel economy dosent tank to something like 3 under those conditions. Or so goes the reasoning anyway. The 360 with the 2 barrel was kinda nice under those conditions because 80 was terminal velocity at WOT.
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One picture at a time apparently.
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One more picture. Had them put in the CJ size hardend seat blanks and shaped the bowl to that
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Let me first put on my flak jacket here, but in my opinion, at the level of build you are talking about, the torque plate honing would not be necessary. If it involves a lot of extra expense, or delays the project, just skip that operation.. Lots of FEs running around at your power level that have never seen a torque plate... it's a nice to have, but not a must have item.
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If it was me.... I would run the XE274H cam in it. If your stuck on Comp Cams. You have 445CI.... Take advantage of it! JMHO
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Who is the local shop with the good rep? We have tried most in north dakota, never again. Twin cities it is for us.
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That Dakota engine builders out of Jamestown. Bunch of guys said call Pingree motors but they were not interested in the job. You have a shop of choice in the citys?
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Yup, r and r performance. Going down later this summer to pick obe up. Get all your stuff together and i'll take it down for you.
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X2 on R&R in Spring Lake Park.. I know Brian is backed up with work though.
In N.D. ,give Robbie's Repair in Wilton a call.. If he does not do machine work he knows who does good work.. Hi Perf Ford guy for sure.. Got nearly 1000 hp from a twin Turbo 292 Y block and it lives.. He uses it to pull around his portable dyno behind an F-250
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Robbie is a great guy. I've been on his wheel dyno. As far as i know the only two machine shops with torque plates are keller in mandan and quality in Fargo. You will be the only f.e. at kellers and quality machine isn't much better. They dropped a buddies 427 on the floor and broke the ear off. But they said it was like that. >:(
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If you're not opposed to making the trek to Billings, Automotive Performance Center in Billings will do good work for you. I have friends up there in Billings and that's their go-to place.
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OK. I called R&R and Robbi. Robbi says he would use Keller to do the machining and build it at his place. R&R sounds like he has his stuff completely together. Both are backed up for months. Both seemed to be thinking north of what I have on hand but south of what I could come up with by spring.
So I am now thinking plan G. Got a message out to a fellow who tried to sell me a set rebuilt low mile heads to slap on the pushrod bending 360 that's in the truck so I can get back to sorting out exhaust, brakes, steering, springs, wheels, and tires for the rest of the summer. If i can get those heads and put them on for under a grand I think it will be worth it to get all the rest dealt with before I foot the bill for the engine.
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R&R is a top flight machinist... He does not do any assembly work so you would have to do it yourself or find someone besides Brian
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I don`t know how far you are from Wright Minn., but some of the fastest NHRA Stock Eliminator FE Fords came out of Line Performance in Wright Minn. Lance & Ben Line both run 428 CJ powered 69 Mustangs (Their brother is Pro Stock racer Jason Line). I have no idea if they do "normal" street engine work, but may be worth a look. What are your planned use for this engine? A heavy truck used for towing does not need a lot of cam or carb if it mainly gonna see less than 3500 RPM. Also, be sure to check whatever headers you plan to use, to see if the exhaust port locations are compatable. C6AE-R heads have the earlier high port location, most truck heads use the later lower port location, as do the Hedman and FlowTech headers that I used on my 74 F350s 390. (D2TE heads).
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So question. Will CJ valve heads clear a 360 STD block?
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So question. Will CJ valve heads clear a 360 STD block?
Yes, at higher lifts, MUCH higher than can be run with stock style guides, the exhaust gets close with a 1.67 valve, but nothing to worry about for even a very rowdy build
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OK so looking at what the bores and heads look like on the engine in the truck I am going with the bad gas explanation. IE bad gas from the recently reactivated front tank coated the valvestems in varnish and caused them to sick when the engine was shut off. This caused the pushrods to bend next time I went to start the truck. The bores still look really nice. So now I have a dilemma.
Do I clean out the old heads real good and slap them back on with a new headgasket kit so the truck is self mobile till spring when I put the new motor in?
Or do I put on the rebuilt heads, CJ intake, headers, and a cam. Drive it like that till I can swing a set of Survival FElony heads and a Blue Thunder intake and build a big boy motor next winter most likely?
Hmmmmmm. Decisions decisions.
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Personally, if you are happy enough with reduced power, I would do heads, intake and headers now and skip the cam.
The CJ intake and headers will make a noticeable difference. Doing a cam now and again next year seems like a pain to me.
FYI - Your discussion on bad gas is logical, especially if it was old gas. I have seen vehicles that sit for a long time, then get filled with fresh gas, do exactly what yours did. When they sit, the valves stick. However, it is usually an engine that sat for years and was fired with either old gas, or a tank so varnished that the new gas loosened things up and carried it in.
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Dual tank truck. Front tank had been out of use for probably 15 or so years. It was empty so I figured it would be fine. Live and learn I guess.
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So now that its time to winterize everything I finally got around to getting the old motor back together. This is phase "how to do everything wrong, the wrong way" of eventually getting a 445 stuffed under the hood. Step one was have the heads finished. While the shop was getting that done I told them to "pick a cam" so they did. I warned you this was a cringeworthy segment! I also decided that the CJ intake was kinda crusty so I had it tanked at Keller in Mandan. BTW you have to remove the rad, bumper, and entire grille assembly to get the cam out of an FE in a pickup with a 73-77 style grille. A 78-79 you could probably just pull the rad and center section of the grille. At any rate that pain in the ass finished I started taking pictures.
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The hackery is just beginning on this one! While the intake was off of the motor at my buddy Dave's at least 1 leaf fell in the motor through the core holes while I was scraping gasket surfaces. I thought about pulling the motor for two seconds, concluded firstly that I have a spare block, and secondly its fricking cold out. I turned the screw it light on and made a mental note to change the oil extra often for awhile. The engine has about 100 miles on it since reassembly, and no problems so far on that front. Here is a photo of the cam card in case you were wondering. We put it in straight up.
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I got the engine a little farther than the next picture and went to start it and do the break in. No damn spark! At that point it was 8 PM on a Sunday and I decided to bag it. Turned out the tac wire running from the firewall to the coil was broken in no less than 3 places. How it was working fine before is one of life's great mysteries.
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Spark problem solved, it was time to do the cam break in. However after a bit of deep thinking on the subject I decided to head further gas related issues off at the pass at this point. I pumped the 6 month old stuff out of the good rear tank into the varnished up front tank. I then pumped good gas out of one of those wonderfull "safety can" contraptions into the rear tank for the break in.
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Cam break in started, the engine decided to immediately over heat. Always get lever-vent radiator caps, and always install the vent hose! I am pretty sure that what happend was when I filled the coolant up the thermostat was tight enough the block couldn't vent. I put about 3 gallons in it and had no further problems.
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I forgot to mention earlier that in addition to installing a cam I had someone else pick. I also used random old pushrods from three different motors. Seems to run nice and smooth so I guess that worked out. I also failed to mention earlier that the heads were decked .012 mostly to clean up the gasket surfaces. I also put the stock manifolds back on for now. Nothing broke when they came off, and its kinda cold out for crawling around under the truck doing a new exhaust system. So it will get to the headers in the spring. At any rate the machine lives! https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=94&v=QTOJ1jva53c
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After I drove it around a bit to stir the front tank I pumped it out. The results were colorful. I have sloshed a few gallons and pumped it out twice since and it is coming pretty clean now.
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How do you like the changes? Running stronger?
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Its kinda interesting. I get the impression that it mainly took the cap off of RPM and moved the torqe band up. It starts to pull in a respectable way at about 3000 RPM. Problem is that the truck currently has 3.54 gears in the back. So you dont hit 3000 RPM till you are going about 75. So I really have to fix the gearing to get something out of it. That said I still have the origional 3.73 equipped dana 60 that came out of it. Which should help without makiking it a pain to drive long distances. Long term I really need to do something about the NP 435 transmission. I am sorta conflicted about what the right path is on that front. I could run the NP435 with a gear vendors and 4.30 gears to get 3300/2600 at 75 which would be pretty good. I could also do a C6 with a GV and the same gearing. Or I could do a MDL 10 spline tremec TKO500 backed by 4.56 rear gears.
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I found that 265 DEH to be a complete dud in a 428 and I would think it even worse in a 445. You still need to cam that puppy up IMO.