FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Drag Week 2015 => Topic started by: jayb on August 30, 2015, 08:14:38 PM
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This afternoon my friend Kevin (thatdarncat) came by with his Drag Week car for the year and we took a cruise together. I got some good pictures, so I thought I'd use this as an excuse to start up the Drag Week board a little early this year. Kevin is actually still on the waiting list for the event, but he's right near the top, so its a lock that he'll get in. He's bringing his 67 Shelby to the event; to me, it is really cool that he races an original Shelby, and he is going to take it to Drag Week this year too. Here are some pictures of his car:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/kevinscar.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/kevinscar2.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/kevins428.jpg)
For my part, I'm going with the same car as last year, my 69 Shelby clone. It has given me fits all summer long, which I will detail in a long post right before the start of the event, but it looks now like I'm going to make it with the car, so I don't need to fall back to my 69 Mach 1. Here are a couple pictures of this car:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/sclone.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/engsclone.jpg)
I'd say they look pretty good together ;D
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/dwcars.jpg)
The Cobra mural on the hood of Kevin's car is original from the 1970s, according to Kevin. He has owned the car for about 30 years.
We have both been trying to get some shakedown miles on our cars, so when Kevin came over I called my old trunk monkey Captain Stabbin' (HemiJoel on the forum), and he was naturally in the shop working on his cars, so Kevin and I took off for Joel's place about 20 miles away. Joel has been trying to get two cars ready for some events at the end of the summer, his '30s Plymouth for the hot rod class in Drag Week, and his 1929 Duesenberg, for the Duesenberg drag race on Labor Day weekend. Unfortunately for Joel, he hasn't been able to get the projects finished in time, and so he'll be skipping the Duesenberg race, and is planning on bringing his 1967 Hemi GTX convertible to Drag Week. According to Joel the GTX convertible is only one of 17 built in 67 with the Hemi, so it is an extremely rare car, and just like with Kevin's Shelby, I'm impressed that Joel is going to take that car down the track at Drag Week. It probably won't be very fast, but it WILL be very cool.
Another reason that I wanted to get over to see Joel is that his Duesenberg engine is still apart. I was very interested in seeing the guts of that thing. For those who are not familiar with them, this is a double overhead cam, 4 valve per cylinder, hemispherical combustion chamber straight 8, 420 cubic inches, and built new in 1929! It sounded super cool, so I was looking forward to the visit.
This is the sight that greeted us inside Joel's garage:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/Duesy01.jpg)
Man, that is one Looooong engine compartment! After showing us the car, Joel took us over to see the cylinder head next. Here's a few pictures of the head, cast in 1929. The lifters look like a bucket that goes over the valve springs; you can see one installed over the valve and spring in the far bank in the middle of the first photo:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/Duesy02.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/Duesy03.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/Duesy04.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/Duesy07.jpg)
Unbelievable technology for the day, and you wonder why it took Detroit another 60 years to come up with something similar. I guess pushrods are cheaper ::) Anyway, next Joel showed us the short block, which is now assembled:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/Duesy05.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/Duesy06.jpg)
That's Joel's Drag Week car, the 67 Hemi GTX, in the background of the second picture. (It's too bad it has one of those oily, smelly, greasy, fluid couplings in it, instead of a 4 speed ;)) In the Duesenberg short block, those are some real domed pistons, perfectly hemispherical on top with no valve reliefs. They are aftermarket, because the engine originally came with only 5:1 compression, due to the fuel available back in the day. According to Joel the original pistons were flat tops. And how about that 4 row timing chain! A two row chain is a duplex chain, so this must be a quadruplex chain setup. In addition to the pistons, Joel also replaced the factory connecting rods with Carillo rods. Some pictures of the original parts are shown below; in the first picture the rod babbit is chipping away, which is why Joel took the engine apart to rebuild it this year:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/Duesy09.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/Duesy10.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/Duesy11.jpg)
Aluminum rods in 1929! Unbelievable. The pistons are a unique design that thermally separate the piston skirts from the ringed portion of the pistons at the top. According to Joel, this allowed Duesenberg to run very tight clearances on the piston skirts, to eliminate noise and scuffing. Joel is a veritable fountain of information on these engines, and he is using the opportunity of rebuilding his to write a book about them.
Next Joel flipped the engine over on his custom made engine stand (modified just for this project) so we could see the bottom end. Notice that some of the main caps are 4 bolt, and you can see the Carillo rods here. They are much, much heavier than the original factory aluminum rods, so Joel will have to keep the revs down on this motor ;D
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/Duesy08.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/Duesy12.jpg)
The picture above shows a couple of innovations on this engine. There is a float around the oil pump so that the oil level can be read with a mechanical rod that is attached to the float and comes through the block, so you can check your oil level without using a dipstick. Also, that can that is attached to the crank is apparently a patented Duesenberg invention. According to Joel, it contains mercury, and along with a matching can on the other side of the crank, it balances the engine. Kind of like a Fluidampr is supposed to work.
And look at the size of the oil pan in the picture below! It is complete with a windage tray and a round seal that fits around the oil pump, so that the oil has to scavenge through the slots in the windage tray before it gets picked back up by the pump.
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/Duesy13.jpg)
I have to say I came away mighty impressed by this engine, and its too bad that Joel didn't get it back together in time for the Duesenberg drag race next weekend. I'll bet he'll make it next year, though.
Kevin and I had an uneventful trip back to my place after the visit with Joel. An uneventful drive is always good in your Drag Week car LOL! Drag Week registration is two weeks from today. I think we are all getting pretty excited...
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Super Kool Stuff.
Best of luck guys.
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×2 here :)
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x3, I'll be following you.
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That's Joel's Drag Week car, the 67 Hemi GTX, in the background of the second picture. (It's too bad it has one of those oily, smelly, greasy, fluid couplings in it, instead of a 4 speed ;))
Well now we know why it won't be very fast ;D
Great stuff on that Duesenberg. I like seeing the different ideas that auto makers had back then, and why the big dollar cars were so well engineered for the time (even by todays standards). When I was young, a friend of my Dads had a real supercharged Auburn Boattail Speedster. That thing was equally impressive in its design.
Great to hear that you're going to make it with the SOHC, and that Kevin will most likely get in. At least this year you're getting some shakedown runs FOR A CHANGE ;)
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I wish I lived in your neighborhood.
Best of luck to you all.
Really great stuff.
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Interesting engine. Imagine that engine in a light 20-30s
roadster,without a hood 8)
My father have some -29 Packards. They are "overenginered"
Roller cam, At full throttle it opens a valve to squirt oil to cool
the pistons, Separate crankcase in aluminium with cylinderbank
bolted on top.On a 340-350 something flathead producing
around 100 horses :o. A compressor on the gearbox to put air
in the tires 3 brakeshoes in each drum in the limosine there
is a phone from the rear seat to the driver.etc.etc
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Very impressed Kevin is running the Shelby in DragWeek.The cars look awesome
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Very impressed Kevin is running the Shelby in DragWeek.The cars look awesome
Kevin tells me that the engine in his car is the 428 that came out of your 57 Ford, Steve. It'll be like going to Drag Week with an old friend for you... ;D
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Cool post Jay! Yeah, that Dusie has one cool engine with many of the ideas taken from airplane engine makers of the day. Love the gears on the front. Would be really neat to have a clear plexi cover and see those baby's spinning over when the hood was up. Hey, maybe the cam covers too?
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"Kevin and I had an uneventful trip back to my place after the visit with Joel. An uneventful drive is always good in your Drag Week car LOL! Drag Week registration is two weeks from today. I think we are all getting pretty excited"...Yes indeed..! Especially when the car I'll be in has as many HP as the Crusher has stitches
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Lets the GAMES BEGIN!!! Beautiful cars all around!
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Looks good, Jay! I took my Galaxie on it's last shakedown drive last weekend...about 120 miles. No issues so I am good to go. Hope to see you guys in a couple of weeks.
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Wow - very cool stuff!! Glad to see Jay's Shelby tooling around with TWO WHOLE WEEKS to spare ;)
That Model J engine is awesome! I'm still amazed at the four-row timing setup and the high tech mechanicals. I bet he'll be making plenty of power with those pop-up pistons. Maybe a stealthy shot of nitrous is in order, since the correct factory superchargers are well into the six-figures if you can find one!
Looking forward to more updates.
- Bill
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That straight 8 is wicked cool. Glad to see no issues on the shake down runs.....wait a minute, I thought the cars aren't supposed to be drivable until the morning your are scheduled to leave for Drag week?? ;)
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Yeah, I have this image in my mind of Jay working on the car while it's being trailered to the first location....
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Drew, that is not all that far-fetched. Back when Joel and I teamed up for Drag Week, we used his enclosed trailer and I seriously considered working on the Galaxie during the trip down, while Joel was driving the truck. In the end I decided that an emergency stop in the truck might put me in the hospital ::), so I didn't do it, but we did end up doing some work in the trailer to get the car ready prior to Drag Week in 2008. Here's a picture of me cutting the holes in the hood for the Hilborn injector stacks while parked in the hotel parking lot, the night before Drag Week registration in 2008:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/cuttinghood.jpg)
Last minute preparations are a time honored tradition in Drag Week. In fact, last year at the opening driver's meeting, David Freiburger (editor in chief of Hot Rod) announced that this was the largest collection of cars ever assembled that weren't running yesterday LOL!
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Hah, next year I volunteer my services.... I'm a decent mechanic while underway. Figure if I can swap a 500lb power pack in 10 ft seas, trailer life can't be all that bad.
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In fact, last year at the opening driver's meeting, David Freiburger (editor in chief of Hot Rod) announced that this was the largest collection of cars ever assembled that weren't running yesterday LOL!
That probably made Freiburger feel right at home..lol
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That was 7 years ago??? Seems like only yesterday--or last year at most. Time is speeding up, or my memory is slowing down. LOL. What is in the Galaxie now?
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In 2012 the Galaxie broke at the track when my friend Steve was driving, trying to get his NHRA license. I stuck it in the garage and haven't pulled the motor yet, but the NEW motor for the car is an SOHC with two turbos :D Still haven't finished with that engine, and a Drag Week rules change has put the Galaxie in the Unlimited class instead of Modified, so I haven't been in a big hurry on it...
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Great start to a new year at Drag Week Jay. Wish you all the best of luck on the highway and the track......................Al
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Jay,when are you going to add the 4th pic with the Shelby lifting the wheels? ::)
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Apparently more people have dropped out of Drag Week, and Kevin got the message that he could register, so now he is officially registered for the event. This is going to be fun...
I'll add a picture of my Shelby clone pulling the front wheels as soon as I have one. I think I'm going to have to shrink the pictures in my signature though...
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In 2012 the Galaxie broke at the track when my friend Steve was driving, trying to get his NHRA license. I stuck it in the garage and haven't pulled the motor yet, but the NEW motor for the car is an SOHC with two turbos :D Still haven't finished with that engine, and a Drag Week rules change has put the Galaxie in the Unlimited class instead of Modified, so I haven't been in a big hurry on it...
Perfect car for it with the aerodynamics and all.Lutz or Larson don't have a chance :)
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Close enough for a rundown yet??????? ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Nope ;D
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It was awesome to walk out of the shop and see a pair of fine looking Shelby's in the driveway! Congrats to Kevin for getting off the wait list and into the program. I really hope that you make it into the quick 32. And I hope that Jay's Shelby is done with it's teething problems; Jay is due for a good luck year.
I'm glad you guys like the Duesey engine. It is a true privilege to have the opportunity to work on this thing. The precision of this hand built engine is incredible. The fit of every bolt into it's holes, the snug fit of every thread, and the precise location of each hole makes every piece attach with no movement or slop before the fasteners are tightened. And that precision is present throughout, even on stuff like the side covers and cam covers.
Now about that slushy, sloppy, slippy, drippy, stinky, slimy, mushy, fussy, fluid coupling in the GTX: Since I normally shun such devices, and have for years been urging Professor Brown to put a man pedal in his racecars, he will undoubtedly relish this opportunity to proclaim my hypocrisy. And I will have no choice but to humbly let him gloat. I can offer but one feeble defense: When the opportunity to acquire a genuine, one of 17 built, '67 Hemi GTX convert arose, at a price I could handle, in this nice of shape, I would have bought it if it had a C-4! ;D
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It'd be faster if it had a C-4... ;D ;D
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When the opportunity to acquire a genuine, one of 17 built, '67 Hemi GTX convert arose, at a price I could handle, in this nice of shape, I would have bought it if it had a C-4! ;D
I thought every Hemi was 1 of 5 built? ;D ;D
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My Drag Week partner Steve and I were out visiting Joel again today, and an interesting little tidbit emerged regarding the rod bearings on his Duesenberg engine. Since Joel replaced the original aluminum rods with Carillo rods, he was able to use a bearing insert, rather than having the babbit poured into the rods. Guess what rod bearings Joel needed to use on this engine? Two per connecting rod, picture below:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/Duesy14.jpg)
The FE is everywhere! ;D ;D
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They're going for durability/longevity this time. ;D
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Its interesting how the rod holds 2 bearings almost perfectly with the groove in the rod to how the "tit" on the bearing. Its almost as if these rods were designed for double bearings? Or are there specific bearings for these rods that are just extra wide?
I guess what I am asking is what application were these rods originally for? Or were they custom built for the duesenberg and just by chance are able to use 2 FE bearings? I read so much about these cars and see so much about them on TV..... Like the US version of a Rolls Royce :0)
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The rods are custom built just for the Duesenberg by Carrillo. The original rods use a bearing that is cast in place from babbit metal, then bored to size. The Fe has the same diameter rod journal as the Duesenberg, so it made sense to use the FE bearings, rather than poured babbit again.
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That picture that Jay posted way up above shows the original rod, with the original poured babbit bearing, where after 85 years the bearing material is flaking off, probably due to flexing of the aluminum rod bore over time.
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Most of the old engines used really wide bearings. The Ford flathead is pretty wide also.
Joel, is this the same car you showed a video of drag racing a year or two ago? It would have made me pretty nervous with 85+ year old aluminum rods with those heavy pistons. What's the upper rpm limit on these types of engines? I'd think those Carrilo rods would about make that thing bullet proof, almost aircraft worthy.
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Thanks Joel. Awesome!!
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Although those Pistons look like a heavy truck piston they are amazingly light. Maybe Joel has the weight, but they don't feel any heavier than a modern piston half it's size.
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Joel was telling me yesterday that the stock engines were turned up to 6000 RPM. With a 4.75" stroke, that is a piston speed of 4750 feet/minute. Remarkable for that day and age...
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Joel...please let Steve know the mystical ways of a Truck Monkey.I'm sure he dared not ask yesterday as he was enthralled with your shop.
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There is a guy in a machine shop the next town over from me who still pours those babbit bearings.
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A couple of questions for Joel - What was the factory power output on a Duesey? What do you expect for output from the improved rebuild? Are those the factory cams in the picture or some "special" ones?
I must say that I really dig hopping up a car like this and then racing it. I'm not in the wipe a car with a diaper crowd. I'd love to "improve" a Packard someday - family ties to one, but it's long gone. I still have the wheels- they came off a hay rack :o Later, Travis.
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Joel was telling me yesterday that the stock engines were turned up to 6000 RPM. With a 4.75" stroke, that is a piston speed of 4750 feet/minute. Remarkable for that day and age...
Wow
Wow! For a stock engine in the '30s, that is TRULY remarkable!
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Tips on being a good trunk monkey :
1: When you get to the track, unhook the trailer, unload the trunk and the back seat , put the slicks on, take off the exhaust system, put the door bars and the window net in , and check the chassis to see if there was any damage on the road trip.
2: Identify competitors in the same class as Jay. Make notes on their performance and report back to Jay. Also keep an eye out 4 conditions in each lane so you can help him make lane choice decisions if need be.
3: If it's hot out and Jay is all strapped in the car in the staging lanes, bring him something cold to drink.
4: when it's time to leave the track, put the mufflers back on, take the door bars and the window net off, put the street tires on, hook up the trailer, pack the trunk and the trailer and the backseat.
5: after you carry his luggage up to the hotel room, put an Andes chocolate mint on his pillow and fold the cover back a little bit. This makes him really happy and if you're lucky then he won't ask you to rub his back.
6: Jay likes to make bets over silly things during the day, with the stakes usually being who will buy dinner. That can be a lot of fun. But don't let him lose too many times in a row, or he will get crabby and only take you to Taco Bell, even though you took him to Outback when you lost. Sometimes you have to intentionally enter into a bet that you know you will lose just to keep the peace.
7: don't leave a bag of monkey chow on the dashboard of his car. It could spill and go down the defroster tubes, and it gets very stinky when it is hot. Then Jay will be accusing you of farting because he doesn't know about the monkey chow in the defroster.(Don't ask me how I know)
Have fun, good luck!
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On the Duesenberg engine I don't think 6000rpm was routine, but there are several reports of it being done during racing, and testing.
The three and three quarter inch bore piston weighs 585 grams. The pin weighs 248 grams. The rod which is over 9 inches center to center weighs 722 Grams without the cap and the steel cap and nuts wayed 361 Grams.
During World War 2, Pratt & Whitney company was testing large aircraft superchargers, and they needed something powerful to spin them while they measured their outputs. The company bought 3 used Duesenberg cars, and pulled the engines out of them and hooked them up to their test stands. Not to supercharge the engines, but to spin the superchargers during the tests. The 265 horsepower Duesenberg engine was the simplest and most cost-effective way at the time to get that kind of power into play quickly.
Reportedly they ran the doozy engines at 6000 rpm continuously during the tests, and the engines suffered no damage other than 1 block cracked when chilled water was accidentally introduced to the engine when it was very hot.
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There is a guy in a machine shop the next town over from me who still pours those babbit bearings.
I have poured babbit bearings for a model T.Its not that complicated
but the guy who showed me how had a few trick how to do it and how
to "burn in the new bearing to give it harder surface
For hi perf use there is "Diesel" babbits thats harder than regular babbit
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Tips on being a good trunk monkey :
1: When you get to the track, unhook the trailer, unload the trunk and the back seat , put the slicks on, take off the exhaust system, put the door bars and the window net in , and check the chassis to see if there was any damage on the road trip.
2: Identify competitors in the same class as Jay. Make notes on their performance and report back to Jay. Also keep an eye out 4 conditions in each lane so you can help him make lane choice decisions if need be.
3: If it's hot out and Jay is all strapped in the car in the staging lanes, bring him something cold to drink.
4: when it's time to leave the track, put the mufflers back on, take the door bars and the window net off, put the street tires on, hook up the trailer, pack the trunk and the trailer and the backseat.
5: after you carry his luggage up to the hotel room, put an Andes chocolate mint on his pillow and fold the cover back a little bit. This makes him really happy and if you're lucky then he won't ask you to rub his back.
6: Jay likes to make bets over silly things during the day, with the stakes usually being who will buy dinner. That can be a lot of fun. But don't let him lose too many times in a row, or he will get crabby and only take you to Taco Bell, even though you took him to Outback when you lost. Sometimes you have to intentionally enter into a bet that you know you will lose just to keep the peace.
7: don't leave a bag of monkey chow on the dashboard of his car. It could spill and go down the defroster tubes, and it gets very stinky when it is hot. Then Jay will be accusing you of farting because he doesn't know about the monkey chow in the defroster.(Don't ask me how I know)
Have fun, good luck!
Steve, are you taking notes? The mint on the pillow is especially important ;D ;D ;D
Actually, Joel is a little miffed at me because I threatened to replace him with another trunk monkey:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag Week 2015/tm.jpg)
I liked this trunk monkey better. To begin with, he smelled better than the old trunk monkey. He was also much less expensive to feed. He was more polite, too, and didn't snore all night long in the hotel room. He only required minimal upkeep, whereas the previous trunk monkey needed 5 or 6 suitcases of supplies before he would go anywhere. And of course, the new trunk monkey got quite a bit more work done than the old trunk monkey.
We'll see how this year's trunk monkey works out...
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No more Joel? Awwwhhhhhh :'(
Hah, that was funny!
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Knowing the original T/M will be on the road too will be of some comfort as ongoing tutoring may be needed...... http://bedbugregistry.com/
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(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag%20Week%202015/tm.jpg)
My son!
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On the Duesenberg engine I don't think 6000rpm was routine, but there are several reports of it being done during racing, and testing.
The three and three quarter inch bore piston weighs 585 grams. The pin weighs 248 grams. The rod which is over 9 inches center to center weighs 722 Grams without the cap and the steel cap and nuts wayed 361 Grams.
During World War 2, Pratt & Whitney company was testing large aircraft superchargers, and they needed something powerful to spin them while they measured their outputs. The company bought 3 used Duesenberg cars, and pulled the engines out of them and hooked them up to their test stands. Not to supercharge the engines, but to spin the superchargers during the tests. The 265 horsepower Duesenberg engine was the simplest and most cost-effective way at the time to get that kind of power into play quickly.
Reportedly they ran the doozy engines at 6000 rpm continuously during the tests, and the engines suffered no damage other than 1 block cracked when chilled water was accidentally introduced to the engine when it was very hot.
In the aeronautical lab where I worked as an undergrad, they had just re-powered one of the smaller wind tunnels before I arrived. It was now a big AC motor driving an axial fan. What powered it before? It was a huge centrifugal blower driven by a 12-cylinder Packard Merlin aircraft engine. They dismantled the Merlin and threw it in the trash!!! It was the early eighties - who knew? Man if I could go back in time...
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(http://fepower.net/Photos/Drag%20Week%202015/tm.jpg)
My son!
I'm hoping he was adopted! :o
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Better plan on getting there early and being there a looong time Sunday at St Louis. There is another 3 day event scheduled at the same time and a guy on BangShift said he has been to similar events and they are a complete disaster. A million people there with no clue when it comes to race car etiquette , they are just there for the show. Registration closes at 1pm but T-N-T doesn't start until 7pm! Just a heads up. Right now I am on the fence whether I'll make it or not. I had a home a/c meltdown this week that was very expensive and I have my cousin's funeral to go to Saturday and I would need to haul my Galaxie with me to the cemetery on the way to St Louis. Probably not too appropriate(although my cousin would have no doubt got a chuckle out of it!)
Event Scheduled
http://ubdra.org/
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Wow, that's a long time to wait for the test and tune! I'm going, though. Alan, I sure hope you make it, I'd love to see your big Gal go down the track...
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Is it soup yet? ;D
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Soon now. Prepare for a very long read...
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growing up I frequently heard the term: IT'S A DOOZY!
How cool is it to have a car's name make that expression!
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I'm all loaded up and almost ready to go. I'll be heading out tomorrow. 8)
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Great! I'm finishing up my loading tonight; had to solve one more unexpected problem today ::) Should be off in the morning though. See you there, Alan.
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Alan....I hope Saturday goes as well as it can.
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I'm finishing a few last minute things and packing up as well. Have a good trip Alan.
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Im still at the office trying to finish all my work so I can leave for a week. :-\
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Good luck guys.
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Been checking out Kevin's/That Darn Cat's SHELBY. I recall those funky wheels being sold way back when, I think they were called Motor Wheel? Looks like he's running Mud & Snow tires on the back and I have thought he uses slicks carried in a trailer - but no trailer hitch on the car?
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Kevin is carrying all his stuff in the car, no trailer.
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Best of luck guys!