FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => The Road to Drag Week 2014 => Topic started by: jayb on July 27, 2014, 11:20:22 PM
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Just a short report this week, plus a video. I got the rear end gears installed on Wednesday night, and spent Friday night and Saturday until noon getting the throttle linkage worked out. From there I started working on the wiring, disconnecting all the wiring for the old ems-pro EFI system, and the datalogger electronics that I had added to it, and then working over the wiring for the MS3X that I had put together on the dyno. Bill Conley was in town over the weekend visiting his wife's family, and he stopped by for a few hours on Saturday night to help out. Towards the end of the night we had beer and pizza, and Bill snapped this photo of me installing some of the MS3X wiring in the car:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Road to Drag Week 2014/BillCphoto.jpg)
I had no idea that the broad, flat surface of the plenum would be so convenient for holding a couple of beers :D Anyway, I got most of the way done with the wiring on Saturday night and finished the MS3X wiring up by about noon on Sunday. After a family commitment I was back out in the shop by 3:00; I still had to install the wiring for the O2 sensor controller and a new relay and wiring for the electric water pump. Once finished with that I turned on the power, and happily there was no smoke. After checking out some of the systems everything seemed to be working well except for the Aeromotive fuel pump. It had flipped on once when I was messing with the wiring, and that was it. Finally I gave up on that for a while, and finished up under the car, which involved filling the differential with oil, draining the old transmission fluid, installing the pipes and mufflers, and then installing the rear tires in preparation for breaking in the rear end gears. After that was all done it was around 6:00 PM, and I decided to take the fuel pump and filter arrangement of the dyno and plug it into the car. Once I did this the fuel system started working fine. Filled her up with trans fluid and put water in the radiator, and crossed my fingers as I turned the key. The engine spun over with no trouble, but wouldn't start. I broke down and hooked the computer up to the EFI system, and realized at once when the display came up that I had not recalibrated the throttle position sensor. I did that, and tried again, and this time the car fired right up. Next I wired in the electric fan control, and set up the software to turn the fans on at 180 degrees, and started the engine again. As it warmed up the idle came up higher and higher, and I still have to address that issue. The Accufab throttle bodies have the throttle stop screws loctited in place, and there is no additional screw to set the throttle openings, so I had to try to do that with the linkage. That of course is not the ideal solution, and I'm going to have to work on that in the coming week to find a solution. But after adjusting the throttle linkage a little more I got the engine to settle into a 1500 RPM idle (?), and warmed it up. Everything looked fine, so after it cooled a little I took the following video, where I started up the engine again and put the car in first gear to break in the new rear end gears. The video is not the greatest quality but you will get the idea. You will also see that there is a lot of cleanup and finish work left to do on the car:
http://youtu.be/DZb7XK9qNMM
After I got done breaking in the rear end gears I felt pretty good about this thing. Then, I looked under the car, and saw a big puddle of oil with drips coming from the back of the pan :( :( I'm a little baffled by this, because the engine wasn't leaking any oil on the dyno, but somehow between the move from the dyno to the car, something has changed. I started the car up again to try to find the source of the leak but it appears to be dripping all across the back of the oil pan, and the front side of the flywheel is wet with oil. Its almost like the rear main blew out, and badly at that. Right up to that point I was confident I was going to make it to the track on Friday this week, but it is leaking so much oil I don't think I dare take it racing. It looks like I'm going to have to pull the pan. I will do some more investigation on this tomorrow night and try to figure out where it is leaking; maybe I can patch it externally with some RTV if its not the rear main. We'll have to wait and see if I can make it to the track or not. I'll post another update next Sunday...
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Egads, look at all that wiring! :o I'm guessing there's no schematic to glance at...lol
Funny how parts can go bad while not being used. At least you had a spare pump handy. Same with my starter, worked when taken out but nothing when I checked it with a battery before installing it. I hope the oil leak isn't in the rear seal or back of the block. Mine didn't leak a drop, just made a terrible racket inside the bellhousing :( Pizza sounds good right now.
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I always enjoy your posts as well as the videos.
I always end up tipping my beer over if it's anywhere near me when I'm working on the car.
Could something be going on with your vacuum pump that would cause excessive crankcase pressure?
I don't know what it is but it seems like there are more new parts failures than there used to be.
Hopefully it's not to hard to figure out and repair.
Best of luck.
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It looks like a cross between a race car and the space shuttle. I hope the oil leak isn't a huge deal, I can't wait to see this thing go! ;D
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Car is so excited to have a Cammer engine in it that it made a little puddle on the floor!
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Well crap an oil leak! Not good! Hopefully it's not coming from the back of the block.
Hell that plenum top is a giant coaster! Next time mill a couple of "FE Power beer goes here" spots. Maybe do a nice blue anodized script inlay too. 8)
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Well crap an oil leak! Not good! Hopefully it's not coming from the back of the block.
Hell that plenum top is a giant coaster! Next time mill a couple of "FE Power beer goes here" spots. Maybe do a nice blue anodized script inlay too. 8)
For Outstanding Racing Drinks ?
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I always end up tipping my beer over if it's anywhere near me when I'm working on the car.
When I walk into the garage my beer falls over on it's own just to save time ;D.
Jay, does sound good, I'm with CJ Doug on the wiring. Looks pretty intimidating from my end but probably second nature to you.
Hope that oil leak doesn't set you back too far, really looking forward to hearing and seeing it off of those jack stands.
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Egads, look at all that wiring! :o I'm guessing there's no schematic to glance at...lol
Actually, I have a complete schematic for the entire car. When I built it in 2010-2011 I tore all the factory wiring out, and as I installed new, color coded wiring I drew in the same color lines on my schematic, done in my 2D CAD program. It looks like a real rats nest in there, and I guess it is, but with the schematic I can muddle my way through. I actually need to update the schematic now, with the new EFI system, so the schematic is currently a little out of date...
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I seem to remember you had a bit of trouble with your super slick oil pan. ;)
Wonder if a pin hole opened up.
You were so careful with your seal installations and with negative pressure would one blow like that?
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Jay:
My Accufab TB's have stacked set screws. Pull out the outer one and their is one behind it that actually engages the stop. The second screw allows you to be sure they don't move once adjusted. I have mine set up to draw air from both instead of just one. It seemed happier in terms of AFR balance that way. I tried sequential progressive linkage but that was a fail so they are 1:1 linked with the progressive set of link bars for the "secondaries". I did re-drill the attachment point on my original to get the maximum delay before the "secondary' opens and when I bought #2 for the dual setup I found they had made it a running change. I also had to wittle on mine a bit for manifold top clearance as you did.
When Scott comes in two weeks we may try the dual idle valves. So far I haven't used them.
Bill
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Actually, I have a complete schematic for the entire car.
Actually, I figured you did. I wouldn't expect anything less from an engineer. I have no idea about the 2D CAD program, but drawing schematics is an art form unto itself.
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Maybe a stupid question, but can you use an IAC or something like it to control idle speed on a higher horsepower engine?
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Jay:
My Accufab TB's have stacked set screws. Pull out the outer one and their is one behind it that actually engages the stop. The second screw allows you to be sure they don't move once adjusted. I have mine set up to draw air from both instead of just one. It seemed happier in terms of AFR balance that way. I tried sequential progressive linkage but that was a fail so they are 1:1 linked with the progressive set of link bars for the "secondaries". I did re-drill the attachment point on my original to get the maximum delay before the "secondary' opens and when I bought #2 for the dual setup I found they had made it a running change. I also had to wittle on mine a bit for manifold top clearance as you did.
When Scott comes in two weeks we may try the dual idle valves. So far I haven't used them.
Bill
Thanks Bill, the big problem I've got is that I can't even get the set screws to come out. There may indeed be two of them in there, but I don't know because the accessible one is stuck. I've already bent one Allen wrench trying to get one of them out of there. I think I may resort to heat at some point, but I'm a little reluctant to do that on the anodized aluminum...
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Maybe a stupid question, but can you use an IAC or something like it to control idle speed on a higher horsepower engine?
I think so, but never having done it (and having had good luck with the throttle stop approach) I don't know what can of worms I may be opening. Sounds like cdmbill2 is going to be trying it soon, with help from Scott Clark; maybe he'll post his results here...
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Plus with the throttle blades too far open now the IAC will do nothing to lower the idle speed.
Depending on the LocTite used MEK has been known to soften it.
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Jay, on the oil leak, is it possible you have a fitting or line that has a leak and it's migrating down the oil pan rail to the rear? Just a thought because I know it was dry on the dyno so I've been thinking about what could have been changed/removed/reinstalled from the dyno to the car.
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I've been thinking about that too, Mark, and checked a couple of areas up top last night, but they were dry. I'm going to try to do a better job of that tonight, as well as checking all the dry sump fittings to make sure there is no issue with those. The leak has got me scratching my head, that's for sure, but one thing that I did do after the engine was off the dyno was tighten up the oil pan bolts, and I'm wondering if somehow I squished the oil pan gasket out of shape when I did that. Seems unlikely, but that's the only real change that I can think of...
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Still curious how negative pressure would affect oil as far as leaking out of the block.
Does it affect it at all?
Since I've never run a pump I have no idea.
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Last time I had this issue with a leaf after install it was a mechanical oil pressure line that goes to a gauge in the dash with a union at the firewall. It leaked on the back of the motor which drove me nuts as it doesn't push oil out with the vacuum pump normally.
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Still curious how negative pressure would affect oil as far as leaking out of the block.
Does it affect it at all?
Since I've never run a pump I have no idea.
I have multiple engines with vacuum pumps/vacuum systems on them. One would think that if you are pulling a vacuum in the crankcase that it would not be possible to leak oil out but that is not true. I had a BBC that leaked oil on the right side, it took forever to find, there was a pin-hole in one of the fabricated valve cover welds. The engine had 10-12" of vacuum (wet sump) yet still leaked out the pin hole. I also had a front seal leak on a circle track SBC even with 10" vacuum.
The interesting thing is that if it can leak oil out it can definitely leak air in so by fixing the leaks you should see more vacuum. The other thing to consider is that if it can leak air in it can also leak dirt in. This isn't a big concern on a drag race car but it can become a big concern on a car that is driven in dusty conditions. It doesn't take much dirt to ruin bearings.
The biggest advantage to running negative pressure in the crankcase is that it allows us to run ultra-low tension oil rings and still maintain ring seal. This reduces parasitic losses. You can't run 5-8lb tension oil rings (at least for very long) without having vacuum in the crankcase as they won't seal. It is absolutely imperative that you keep oil out of the combustion chamber so you can see how important vacuum becomes.
I did a test once with a methanol motor. We were making dyno pulls with VP M1 and no top-end lube. We added the recommended 1oz of top-end lube per gallon of gas (or maybe it was 1oz per 5 gallons I don't remember now) and the engine immediately LOST 10 HP!!!! We removed the fuel with the oil in it and the power came right back. We then used VP's top-end lube which is lead based, not oil based, and power remained the same.
This should show you how important oil control is. If you are pulling spark plugs on your engine and the threads have oil on them you still have some work to do on the oil control. Adding a vacuum system will help greatly with this, as will the right ring package, the right cylinder wall finish, round cylinder walls, etc. Another thing to consider is bay to bay breathing. If you have an engine with poor bay to bay (meaning air can not move around freely in the crankcase) this can hurt ring seal as well. Vacuum systems will help with this issue some as well but I personally don't think you can have too many crankcase vents (internal of course) to connect the heads, valley, and lower crankcase together. The easier it is for air to move around in the crankcase the easier it is for the rings to remain sealed.
These are my thoughts on the issues anyway.
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Thanks Mark.
Hadn't thought about the crank case side of the rings.
I only had the simple view of containing combustion.
Really am enjoying learning this stuff.
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Thanks Mark.
Hadn't thought about the crank case side of the rings.
I only had the simple view of containing combustion.
Really am enjoying learning this stuff.
remember that if you can build pressure under the rings (for whatever reason) that pressure can un-seat the rings. Ring seal is #1 as far as getting the most power and best drivability and least oil consumption from a combination. You will find it's very common to gap the top ring tighter than the 2nd ring. This goes against the tradition of gapping the top ring wider (the theory here is it's hotter so it expands more and needs more gap so it doesn't touch). The reason for this is because IF some combustion pressure leaks by the top ring, you do not want it to be able to build pressure between the top ring and the 2nd ring causing the top ring to unseat. I almost always gap my 2nd ring .004" wider than the top ring to make sure no pressure builds between the rings.
It is also best to get rid of the antiquated 1/16"-1/16"-3/16" ring packs and go with a more modern, thinner pack like a 1.2mm/1.2mm/3mm because the thinner rings actually seal better and today's materials are so good they last longer as well. There are a number of benefits to using thinner ring packs, especially at higher rpm. Almost all of the O.E. (I say almost because I don't know all of the engines from all of the manufacturers) are using thin rings now. The reason they do is due to emissions and oil consumption requirements but the end result is the thinner rings seal better.
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Jay, I'm sorry if I derailed your thread :(
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My fault Jay sorry.
I'm in sponge mode and your oil leak got me thinking.
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Jay, I'm sorry if I derailed your thread :(
Sheesh guys, don't worry about that! All part of the learning experience. FWIW I follow exactly the same procedures as you do, Mark, with respect to ring gaps; I always gap the second ring .004" looser than the top ring. I have also gone to .043/.043/3mm ring packs on most of my engines. I had never thought about how air moving around in the crankcase could affect ring seal, and I'm thinking that the SOHC should be pretty good there because there are no lifters in the lifter bores; they are wide open. On the other hand, my dry sump pan is relatively tight up to the bottom of the reciprocating assembly, which probably doesn't help any.
By the way, last night I checked all around the top of the engine at the back, and no sign of leakage anywhere; she's bone dry up there. It's either the pan gasket, the rear main, or one of the plugs at the back of the block popped. I've had the cam plug in the back come out before, so that one is held in place with a strap. If one of the pipe plugs in the back of the block came loose, or was never tightened, that could cause it, but I think I would have seen that on the dyno. And pipe plugs don't just come loose for no reason, at least not in my experience.
Mark, when you do a dry sump motor do you reverse the rear main seal? I did that on this engine, and had second thoughts about it, but it is indeed in there backwards. I know of at least one well respected engine builder who does that, and one who prefers not to. Any thoughts?
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Jay, I'm sorry if I derailed your thread :(
I always gap the second ring .004" looser than the top ring. I have also gone to .043/.043/3mm ring packs on most of my engines.
This is the same thing I do, Jay. .004 wider/looser on the 2nd ring
Mark, when you do a dry sump motor do you reverse the rear main seal? I did that on this engine, and had second thoughts about it, but it is indeed in there backwards. I know of at least one well respected engine builder who does that, and one who prefers not to. Any thoughts?
I use special vacuum seals from Signal Motorsports Technologies, I get them from CV Products. If they don't have an FE size for you (probably not) I would use a good Viton seal but install it normal, I've not had good luck installing them backwards. I know a lot of people do it but it has never worked for me.
That being said, I haven't done a pure dry sump deal with lots of vacuum either. All of my vacuum pump motors are wet sump so I limit vacuum to 10-12". After that, oil pressure drops. At 10-12" a normal Viton rear main seal holds up just fine and you can pull plenty of vacuum with it.
I think I would have to re-visit it if I was pulling 18" or more of vacuum.
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I should add that on our Engine Master's Pontiac motor, we were pulling a measured 8.9" of crankcase vacuum with a pan-evac set-up. Vacuum pumps and dry-sumps are not legal for the competition. To get that kind of vacuum out of a pan-evac the motor does need to seal up well. This engine has a Viton rear main seal installed in the normal position.
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900 HP: Peterson advised me to go with a -16 oil pick up line with their wide-vac external wet/sump two stage vacuum pump deal. So far so good.
Do you run a larger than normal pick up line with your motors?
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900 HP: Peterson advised me to go with a -16 oil pick up line with their wide-vac external wet/sump two stage vacuum pump deal. So far so good.
Do you run a larger than normal pick up line with your motors?
I haven't ever tried that to be honest with you. -12 seems to work fine. I don't see where -16 would hurt though.
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Fascinating stuff.
Way over my head, but fascinating!! 8)
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I've heard it suggested that a pair of rear seals facing in both directions is a good idea with a dry sump. It'd probably take some block machining and special-ordered seals but it would likely help against the possibility of leaks.
KS
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Jay, Im sure you know that there is an oil dye to add and a blacklight will show you a bright green trace of where the leak starts. It is a great tool that is used at work at Ford. In fact the manufacture installs the dye in the engines , Trans , and even the A.C. has installed while assembled new.
David
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Yep, I do know about that, and in fact I used some this weekend...
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Yup got some on the shelf. I like the red dye, when you get oil sprayed everywhere it looks like a cat got stuck in the fan LOL.