FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: JimNolan on July 22, 2013, 06:34:15 PM
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Guys,
This is in reference to the 410 I built for my 57 Fairlane making six passes at the Meltdown Drags.
Here's my problem. The first three gears do an outstanding job. But, when I go into fourth the car just falls on it's face. I let up once and it actually picked up speed again. The best I could turn was 14.80 @ 95.35mph. That's with a 2.38 sec 60' (won't tub to get more either, she is what she is for the first 60') and falling on it's face at the end of the track. Did the same thing every pass. If I could have forth gear I know I'd be in the 13's. It doesn't miss at all. Smoother than hell, just don't go.
1. I'm changing to 3/8" fuel line this week and putting my Edelbrock fuel pump on it. Please don't ask why I didn't change it before.
2. Timing is 34 degrees totally with all coming in by 2400. Mr Gasket springs. Do you think I need more advance. 9.5CR and no spark knock with 87 octane. I've got it set at 14 initial now.
3. 750 holley with 72 jets on every corner. No black smoke coming out of tailpipes during runs.
4. The hotter it gets the worse it gets. Engine temp is 180 degrees. Outside temp was in the 90's.
5. My engine was laboring to do 4500 rpm. I'd have thought it'd do better than that.
Is it just running out of gas.
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Tank vent or vented gas cap? Right after a run, stop and pop the gas cap. Should be no pressure nor vacuum (woosh) effect. Heck, you can even go for a drive off the strip and try it. Your tank must be well vented or the gas cap must be vented. Also suspect is the sock inside the tank's fuel pickup, as are old, mushy rubber gas lines that can collapse on the fuel pump's suction side. Be sure all the rubber lines are in tip-top shape as well.
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I just put a new gas cap on it two weeks ago. Unvented, but, it had an unvented on it before. I'll try what you suggest. I just can't understand why I go good through three gears and not the forth. Thanks
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The float bowls take awhile to empty if the gas supply (lack of pressure, lack of venting, collapsing lines, etc.) isn't up to the task. Once the bowls empty down the track, no power!
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These guys have beat me over the head telling me I need to change my fuel line. It IS getting done this week. I'm taking it to Columbus for the Ford Expo Shootout at the end of August. I want it to run as good as I can get it to.
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fuel system for sure,including pump,filters etc making sure there is no restriction.i would also look at the jetting.have you pulled a plug after a run?how do they look?
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IMHO 72's sounds lean on the sec. also twist in some more timing ...18/36 or so ....
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No I haven't pulled a plug to check. The fuel filter is in the fuel pump. When I go to my Edelbrock fuel pump I'll have to add another one inline. Up until this weekend you couldn't have gotten me to believe it'd run out of gas. It did great in colder weather. This is the first time I've actually ran this motor on the track. It did good other wise. No runs or drips. No unusual noises after the run. Just quit pulling in fourth gear. Fine afterward.
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Are you running a secondary power valve-PVCR? If not your secondary jetting is too lean. Try 78-80s in the sec. without p/v. And yes the stock 5/16" line is too small. Don't forget to upgrade your tank pickup to 3/8" as well. Rather than trying to race on 87 octane try a load of 91-92 and bump the timing up to 36-38 total. Start at 36 and sneak up on the 38 if it likes the 36. BTW, the engine picking up at part throttle is a good indication it is running out of fuel....going lean at WOT but backing off the throttle the A/F is now closer to optimum.
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OK,
I copied all this information down. Might as well, you guys built my engine more or less to begin with. All I did was put the parts together. The carb I have is the 0-80508SA 750 Dual Inlet Holley. I have 70 (not 72) jets in the primary and a #21 plate (equivalent to 75 jet) in the secondary. Don't trust my memory anymore so I looked it up to make sure.
1. I'll change to 3/8" fuel line to the tank. ( the tube laying inside the gas tank on my 57 was quiet large, more than 5/16 the best I remember. I had to get in there once and make it lay down flat against the bottom of the tank, so changing the inside pickup shouldn't be needed. It's a new tank also ( 4 yrs old with about 10K miles put on it each year)
2. Install my Edelbrock Chrome high capacity fuel pump ( I ran it on my other motor, didn't put it on this one because I didn't want chrome) go figure.
3. I'll file my mechanical weight on the distributor to give me 2 more degrees mechanical advance.
Don't mean to sound stupid but you guys know me by now. If I want to increase secondary jetting, I take it you buy a plate that equals the jet size you need?
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Jim, do you know how that tank vents?
Seems odd that it'd run well down the road if the vent was bad, but also seems odd that an early car like that would not have a vented cap.
As far as the advance, it won't do anything to fix your problem, and honestly, the 3/8 line may not either. I'd be 100% sure you are vented first, pump second, line third, and not touch the distributor unless you need to.
Also make sure your air cleaner lid isn't too close to the choke horn.
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How much gas is in the tank when you run the car? If less than say 1/2 tank, the pickup could be uncovered at launch, leading to air in the line. Btw, this is unlikely but hey, anything is possible.
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I agree that you have a fuel delivery problem and the suggestions already made will, when totally followed, solve the difficulty you are experiencing. I'd also comment that I gave up on mechanical fuel pumps a very long time ago. (The location of the pump on a flathead---on the back of the intake manifold---tended to cause heat-related fuel-delivery problems)
I'd also comment that the traditional way of setting-up the diz on an FE is to use the 10-degree-marked (20 degrees ignition) notch in the factory diz to limit total advance and then dial in 18 degrees more-or-less of initial.
In order to do so you must use good-enough gas or you will encounter ping. But your driving experience will be such as to give you a permanent smile.
I wish you well!
KS
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OK,
I copied all this information down. Might as well, you guys built my engine more or less to begin with. All I did was put the parts together. The carb I have is the 0-80508SA 750 Dual Inlet Holley. I have 70 (not 72) jets in the primary and a #21 plate (equivalent to 75 jet) in the secondary. Don't trust my memory anymore so I looked it up to make sure.
1. I'll change to 3/8" fuel line to the tank. ( the tube laying inside the gas tank on my 57 was quiet large, more than 5/16 the best I remember. I had to get in there once and make it lay down flat against the bottom of the tank, so changing the inside pickup shouldn't be needed. It's a new tank also ( 4 yrs old with about 10K miles put on it each year)
2. Install my Edelbrock Chrome high capacity fuel pump ( I ran it on my other motor, didn't put it on this one because I didn't want chrome) go figure.
3. I'll file my mechanical weight on the distributor to give me 2 more degrees mechanical advance.
Don't mean to sound stupid but you guys know me by now. If I want to increase secondary jetting, I take it you buy a plate that equals the jet size you need?
You have the option of changing the metering plate or installing a sec. metering block and not mess with plates. The 70/75 jetting IMO is on the lean side as most 750s/780s came with 72s in the primary and I've found that 78s to 80s [no p/v] in the sec. works well.
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Running out of gas.
I would not mess with jetting until you've got the 3/8 line installed along with the better pump.
There's a reason Ford did that on stone stock CJ cars in the 60s - its necessary.
A Carter M6905 pump will handle your needs without the chrome - likely a better pump too...
It's a waste of time without fuel supply - it'll read dead lean even if its pig rich in the first three gears
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Running out of gas.
I would not mess with jetting until you've got the 3/8 line installed along with the better pump.
There's a reason Ford did that on stone stock CJ cars in the 60s - its necessary.
A Carter M6905 pump will handle your needs without the chrome - likely a better pump too...
It's a waste of time without fuel supply - it'll read dead lean even if its pig rich in the first three gears
I'm not real enthused about playing with the carb either. I can set float levels, change jets, adjust pump cams etc. But, I don't know diddly about much more than that. The 3/8" fuel line will be here Friday and I'm replacing the fuel pump tomorrow. I'll use the Edelbrock high output since I already have it and it hasn't got 5000 miles on it. Should be good. Thanks Barry. And Thank all of you that responded. I'll update this when I get the fuel line on and try it out. Ford Expo Shootout at National Trail next up.
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UPDATE: I got the Edelbrock High Volume fuel pump put on. My new timing light with advance will be here today so I'll be more precise in what I set my timing at. I've got an 11L mechanical advance made up already so I'll go with 36-38 degrees total at 2500 rpm with an initial of 16 degrees. Tony Swanson,( my machinist ) is going to install my 3/8" gas line Wednesday morning ( remaking fuel tank outlet if necessary ). Hopefully I'll be in the low 14's or even infringing on the high 13's after I'm done.
Also in the mean time, I found out my old sun tachometer was 300rpm too low. So it looks like shift point was 4800rpm instead of 4500. Getting it tweaked is fun in itself. Mainly because I'm doing it I guess. This has been a fun project and hopefully I can enjoy it for a long time. I know it's not the fastest car but I originally intended to hurl a 4000 lb 57 Ford Fairlane down the 1/4 mile on street tires as fast as I could while being able to drive it 10K a year while getting decent gas mileage and sit in traffic for over 30 minutes without overheating. I'm getting there. Thank all you guys for your help. This project looks like it's working out as intended. I really appreciate the advice you guys share with me. Jim PS At the meltdown drags they had a couple of 427's with stock tires that did about the same ET as me. That impressed me.
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Jim,
Your cars look pretty sanitary too! A couple more pics would be nice :)
Bruce
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OK, here's what went down. I found that if I took the gas cap off after driving I heard a whissh sound. The vent line was stopped up. FIXED THAT. I replaced the carter fuel pump with built in filter with an Edelbrock 110 gph high capacity fuel pump and inline filter. Replaced the entire fuel line with 3/8" aluminum tubing today. Here's the kicker though. As someone else predicted, the fuel tank has a 5/16 fitting welded into the tank. I left it like it was and just reduced it for right now.
With finding the tank vent completely stopped up and installing a bigger fuel pump and fuel line, I've decided to try it and see what happens first before I rip my fuel tank apart. The guy that helped me install the fuel line is a sprint car builder and he suggested getting a fuel log for the dual inlet Holley Carb also. What do you guys think of a fuel log. Would it help? Jim
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The log won't hurt, well except the wallet. LOL
Don't you have some sort of 3/8" dual line to the carb now.
Although the fancy looking multi fitting braided log looks way nicer.
A -8 AN line form the pump to the carb and high flow filter is the best, but the best always costs more. :P
The better pump and 3/8 line will solve your problem, but the 5/16 in the tank will still be a tiny bit of a restriction.
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OK, here's what went down. I found that if I took the gas cap off after driving I heard a whissh sound. The vent line was stopped up. FIXED THAT. I replaced the carter fuel pump with built in filter with an Edelbrock 110 gph high capacity fuel pump and inline filter. Replaced the entire fuel line with 3/8" aluminum tubing today. Here's the kicker though. As someone else predicted, the fuel tank has a 5/16 fitting welded into the tank. I left it like it was and just reduced it for right now.
With finding the tank vent completely stopped up and installing a bigger fuel pump and fuel line, I've decided to try it and see what happens first before I rip my fuel tank apart. The guy that helped me install the fuel line is a sprint car builder and he suggested getting a fuel log for the dual inlet Holley Carb also. What do you guys think of a fuel log. Would it help? Jim
I would bet that you found the only problem with the vent tube, I'd run it and see what it does. I cannot imagine a 5/16 line having an issue feeding your motor
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427Stang,
I had the same feeling all along. They use to put cams and three duces on those 390 Galaxies back in the day and didn't have problems. I'll be at Bunker Hill Sunday, but it's just an 1/8 mile. I won't know for sure until Columbus over Labor Day.
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427Stang,
I had the same feeling all along. They use to put cams and three duces on those 390 Galaxies back in the day and didn't have problems. I'll be at Bunker Hill Sunday, but it's just an 1/8 mile. I won't know for sure until Columbus over Labor Day.
And times have changed...3x2 setups had more fuel capacity due to the 3 fuel bowls and for the most part those engines were not spun past 5K - 5500 rpm. That is not to say that there weren't problems as I would wager there were, just that it was not recognized as a fuel starvation problem but it could have been diagnosed as valve float, ignition crapping out, stars not in alignment, and the horsepower gods frowing on that particular person that day. My experience with V-drive boats, multiple large carbs, high rpms at WOT for long periods of time fuel starvation is usually the first problem to surface. Hence the need for 1/2" to 5/8" fuel line, high capacity fuel pumps and bypass fuel systems is mandatory.
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Guys,
I just got back from Bunker Hill after racing on their 1/8 mile track. By going to 26lbs in the rear tires I was pulling consistent 2.1 second 60 ft times. The engine seemed strong all day and I put about six runs on it. 60 ft. = 2.1519 sec, 330 ft = 5.99 sec., ET@594 ft. = 8.5461 sec., 1/8 mile ET. = 9.1179 and MPH was 78.69.
I know that probably don't seem like much but I'm hurling a 4200 lb car and driver down the strip with street tires 7" wide and an engine built to drive to Gulf Port, Ms and get 18mpg. I was happy and there was obviously no fuel starvation. I'll find out how she does in the 1/4 mile Labor Day at National Trail Dragway in Hebron, OH. I figure it should be in the low 14's.