FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Stangman on August 28, 2022, 09:56:52 PM
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Yes I know this has been talked about buuuut. So I have a 180 thermostat and a fan switch that comes on at 190 and will shut off at 175. I would like it to run cooler but if I was to put a 160 thermostat in there I think the fan will come on and never shut off being that an FE jammed 8n a mustang engine compartment just will never see anything under 160. As it is anything over 85 degrees and my fan stays running like I have it now. So what I’m asking is what cooling combinations are people using and are the working like they are supposed to and I mean fan on and off and then cycle again
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I would keep it the way it is.
I like to see coolant temperatures up around 180-195 on a street car. Obviously on race stuff, it's different.
Coolant temps of 160-170 are not as good for the engine.
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I agree with Brent If you can figure out a way to keep it running at a consistent 195, you'll be doing it a favor. However, if you are saying it won't run thermostat temperature or close to it, leave the warm thermostat in and think airflow not water flow.
Although a bigger or better fan is probably step 1, exit airflow matters too. On my Mustang, I added the Boss 9 scoop for clearance, but dropped temperatures in traffic dramatically with no other changes.
Same with some late models that need a spoiler to make a low pressure area under the car. They can heat up when you remove it because the fan can't push the air out alone
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I've always run 160 degree thermostats, been doing it since the late 1970s. I've always found that the engine runs better with the lower temp thermostat, and don't agree that it is harmful to the engine in our applications. Maybe it would be an issue if you are trying to get 150K miles out of your engine, but none of us are trying to do that.
I think one factor that is not appreciated is that temperatures internal to the engine vary quite a bit. Think about the temperature of combustion, which can be over 1000 degrees. With those kinds of temperatures being generated internally, is a change of 20-30 degrees in the coolant temperature really a significant factor in the longevity of an engine expected to last 20K miles? I think not. However, a change of 20-30 degrees in the coolant temperature leads to a proportional change in the air inlet temperature. Percentage wise that can be a big change, which is why the engine feels stronger on a cool day, or with a lower temperature thermostat. Seems like a lower temp thermostat is a pretty good tradeoff for a performance engine.
My electric fans are set to turn on at 180, and off at 170. They cycle constantly in city driving, but on the freeway the temperature drops to 160 and the fans don't run. I think this is probably a function of the tight engine compartment, where a whole bunch of airflow at 50+ MPH is required to really get enough air through the radiator and engine compartment, and drop the temperature all the way to the thermostat rating.
JMO, of course ;)
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Is it able to hold that temp?. That is the most important part.
If you want your fan/fans to cycle i think that will be tough in that type of engine bay.
You would need a cooling combo that can pull the water temp back to below 175. if your system can't do that now when it is 85deg air temps hard to say what a fix for that is.
Keep in mind that all a cooler thermostat will do is allow the water to have full flow sooner cheapest option to try as well. Too much flow can be bad too not enough time for the rad to do its job.
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Like Jay, I have been running 160 degree thermostats "forever", including in the 390 in my old 74 F350 car hauler. I drove that truck for 26 years with the 160 Tstat, sold it 8 years ago, and to the best of my knowledge, it is still is still in use. In all those years, I never had to add any oil between changes, so I have to question the "rapid engine wear" from running "too cool". I have seen many more engines damaged from excess heat than running cooler, and I would much prefer having a 30 or 40 degree safety margin if I got stuck in gridlock for a long border line up, event parking,etc, with my engine at 165-170, then if it was already at 190 or 200. And no one can deny that a cooler running engine makes more power. I think much of this "cool is bad" myth came about from a study years ago concerning engine temps vs wear, which did show very low temps (like cold start up, to about 120 degrees) absolutely did show accelerated wear, but in my opinion, it was showing the wear from cold starts, not so much from lower coolant temps. Once the temp got up much over 140 degrees, the graph line was not much different than 190. I assume hotter coolant makes the oil less likely to sludge up, but how many of us are driving our FEs 10s of thousands of miles per year, and going over 6000 miles or more between oil changes? My F350s 390 rarely saw more than 2000 miles a year, and had a oil change at the beginning of each racing season, and I changed the valve cover gaskets after about 20 years of the 160 Tstat, and the heads and valvetrain were spotlessly clean
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I never run anything under 180 is a door car/street/strip. Too cold reduces oil life and in most cases makes you "chase" the temp because the heat exchange doesn't work as well. Especially with an aluminum radiator, you want that water hot - 180~195 - to get a good delta between ambient and the heat exchanger (radiator). hot water = cool engine. The dragster runs methanol and no thermostat. I try to head for the water box at 170 and roll into stage at 180 for a pass. I make the turnout at 200 and it'll be back close to 180 by the time I get to the pit. I don't have any of the milky oil issues and such that some people running methanol seem to have.
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I have run all kinds of thermostats too, the thermostat doesn't matter the fluid and material temps do. In the end, a stable temp is the goal, and unless the cooling system is up to task, a wide open thermostat doesn't know what temp it opened. I like to see a cooling system that can run at thermostat temp, then use a temp that ensures water is burned off on the street.
As far as internal temps, diesels taught me the benefit of water pump head pressure too (not expansion pressure). The harder you can push that water into those two FE outlets, with some restriction at the water neck outlet, the more consistent temps will be internally.
I still think if the OP has a temp problem, not sure if he does, then look at airflow.
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I think my temps aren’t that bad they stay between 187 and 192 not moving. I just started the new motor and was talking to Blair and he wanted it to run cooler but I’m not sure in my car with shock towers if it’s possible. I have a Griffin 2 row 1 1/4 tubes and a dual 11 inch fan setup with the 180 thermostat with a sender that tells the fans to come on at 190. If I get a 160 thermostat the fans will com on at let’s say 170 if I get a sensor that is set up like that. But it’s never gonna go below 160 for the fan to shut off. I don’t know.
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Well Blair built it and wouldn't argue with him over something he knows the inside of, but those temps, stable at idle, sure don't seem to be an issue for me.
If you were percolating fuel, vapor lock, or runaway temp at idle, then I'd change my tune, but it sounds like it's working pretty well.
I do think you are right though, IF a 160 dropped it to 160, then the fan would never shut off unless you had an adjustable or different controller.
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I think you may be confusing the thermostat with what ever sensor you have working your fans
if your running a 180 thermostat that will open to allow full water flow at 180deg buy lowering that opening temp to 160 that just lets the water flow unrestricted at 160deg that should not change when your fan turns on or off if your fan is set to come on at 180 then it should come on at 180 that will also be the same time that the thermostat should be opening allowing unrestricted water flow if you had a 180 installed. if you have a 160 thermostat installed and have your fan set to come on at 180 then at 160 deg the thermostat will open and allow full flow of water through the system your fan will still come on at 180 and if flow and cooling is good enough it should turn off the fans once temp goes below the temp you have set up eg 175 but you will still have full flow of water cycling through the system as the thermostat should be only close if below temp goes bellow 160deg. That will only ever happen like Jay said on the highway driving or freezing air temps
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thanks JB but I do understand its just that the lower the themostat the less chance I have of having the fan cycle. I guess I could save up for the next size
radiator. I have a crossflow and have one side of the frame in front notched. I know Jay was saying he has both sides notched. That would give me another 2 to 3
inches of radiator not to mention I can run dual 12 inch fans. After paying for motor funds are alittle low but do want it right.
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I like to see a cooling system that can run at thermostat temp, then use a temp that ensures water is burned off on the street.
Ross, based on my experience water starts burning off long before the thermostat opens. You can see it with my clear valve covers; they are milky white on start up from water condensation in the engine, but by the time the temp gauge starts moving they have nearly cleared completely. I've never seen that condensation present when the engine is up to temp, and that's with a 160 degree thermostat. The condensation will burn off regardless of what thermostat is used, unless the engine is only fired for a very short time. Burning off condensation is not a consideration when selecting a thermostat.
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Jay who makes your radiator and what fan set up do you have. What are the measurements
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On my 68 Mustang with 430 HP 428CJ I'm using a 3 core stock replacement type radiator (top and bottom tanks), with two Spal electric fans. On my race car with the big 1000 HP SOHC I'm using a 19X31 crossflow aluminum radiator, two 1-1/4" cores, and two larger Spal fans. Can't remember where I got the radiator but it was about $600. I will also be using that same fan combo with a different 19X31 crossflow aluminum radiator, dual core with 1" tubes, on my 68 Shelby convertible, with the supercharged FE. I used that same radiator and fan combo on my Galaxie also. One note about the big aluminum radiators in a Mustang, you have to notch the frame rails at the front to make them fit. A link to that radiator is below.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-380431
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I like to see a cooling system that can run at thermostat temp, then use a temp that ensures water is burned off on the street.
Ross, based on my experience water starts burning off long before the thermostat opens. You can see it with my clear valve covers; they are milky white on start up from water condensation in the engine, but by the time the temp gauge starts moving they have nearly cleared completely. I've never seen that condensation present when the engine is up to temp, and that's with a 160 degree thermostat. The condensation will burn off regardless of what thermostat is used, unless the engine is only fired for a very short time. Burning off condensation is not a consideration when selecting a thermostat.
Fluid temps are fluid temps and the number on the thermostat means little to me. Like I said above, I like to see a stable temp and enough to burn off water. If the oil gets to 220 or so, barring a significant vacuum on it that may allow lower, all is good. If it doesn't not a panic, but not great over time
I don't see any water on my FEs, ever, and can be pretty humid here at times, and I'd see it on a PCV that I run on all of mine. How significant and repeated are you seeing it? Maybe the vapor isn't really leaving and that's why you see it. I guess the last question is does it run that cool or is that the number on the stat and you are getting warmer, if so, hard to say water temp doesn't matter. Very few of us, other than in trucks, have a cooling system that can shed to run 160 under load
The only time I water on diesels is winter, short trips, where it barely reaches operating temp and it has a more extreme cooling system.
That being said, small changes in temps do make significant dimensional changes, even cold parts and micrometers will look very different. I really see no reason to try to keep it at 160, and if I did, I might even be inclined to build it a little looser if it ran hard at that temp, like a boat ;)
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It says only 215 bucks are you sure thats the radiator. The size is right but thats the one that cools the 1000 horsepower beast. If so that very reasonable. I paid 500 for my radiator 10 years ago.
Do you think that summit radiator will cool 600 horse in a shock tower car. What actually makes a radiator handle 400 or 1000 horsepower, I know tube and fine size but how can it be so different.
Should I e saving for a name brand, or are you paying for the name.
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That is the correct radiator. Used to be under $200. The fans are at least as important as the radiator, maybe more. That will cool a 600 HP engine with no trouble, provided the good Spal fans are used.
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Thank you Jay.
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This is the fan setup I have installed on the Cougar and also on the race car. I'm going to buy one of a slightly different size for the '62 Galaxie when the time comes. They sell it with or without the relays. The race car one I ordered without relays and we did our own wiring. They move a ton of air, real nice quality.
http://www.maradynehp.com/mach-series.html#mach-two
Found it on Amazon:
amazon.com/Maradyne-MM22K-Mach-225W-Puller/dp/B002Q389V6
(https://i.postimg.cc/3N0N6497/IMG-1433.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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I use the same radiator that Jay is using. It has a set of Camaro LT1 fans mounted on it - they fit perfectly and replacement motors are available because they are an OEM item.
(https://raceabilene.com/misc/LT1fanB.jpg)
I can tell you that with a 500 HP iron headed 351C on the street, the best temp control was had using a 195F thermostat. I believe I had the fans triggered one at 190F, off at 180. This setup controlled temp including in summer here, where the asphalt will be 130~150F in the afternoon. And, on the track where we have seen starting line temps of 160F. The current setup is set for 180 on, 170 off but I currently use just the manual override with the control disconnected. I don't run the fans going down the track.
Another Note:
(https://raceabilene.com/misc/LT1fanA.jpg)
Note the flaps on the upper left/lower right (Got to fix that missing flap LOL). Those flaps are there to bypass air when the car is moving. Most of the aftermarket setups do not have this. I mention this because at a certain speed (unknown, but easily before highway speed) electric fans become more cardboard disk than fan. In other words - they become a blockage to air passing through the radiator. Hence the OEM fan support using bleed off ports. That Maradyne fan unit seems to have those. "Take care to notice that the assembly has a top and bottom orientation where the air vent doors hang down."
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So Falcon 67 I would assume your frame is notched both sides. How far out does the fans stick out looks alittle far but I bet they move some air though.
I will research those fans mike. They look good, CFM wise also.
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In a Fairlane chassis, not required. Falcon/Fairlane same engine compartment. The combo sits right on the forward strut rod braces and top is just about level with the radiator support. Note that for ease of service, the top of the rad support has been removed (easier engine extraction). Also, the core support "window" has been opened up to accommodate the larger core area.
If I were to drop that in the (gone now) 70 Mustang, yes - have to notch or ? the frame because it's too wide for the Mustang nose. IIRC only a 26" wide generic 2 core aluminum will fit between the frame rails on a Mustang.
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Wow didn’t realize the falcon was as wide. Definetly going to save up for this.
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You have to be careful when relying on electric fan cfm numbers. A lot of them are given in free air, and that is not how the fan works; there is a pressure drop when the fan is placed up against the radiator. There are many fans out there that have an extreme loss of airflow when installed, as compared to the free air rating. The OEMs know this, so all the OEM fans are very good in terms of still flowing a lot of air in the installation. The aftermarket fans, not so much, and in fact Spal is the only one that I've seen that will actually rate their fans at different pressure drops. They are more expensive than the cheaper fans, and for good reason.
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Jay do you use a shroud assembly our do you mount them to the radiator with those zip tie things. I wound like to get 2 13 inch fans but I dont know if they would fit or did you make a shroud for it. What size fans are on it. I thought about putting a 16 and a 10 even. And yes I heard that about the Spal fans. Oh and to let everyone know I called Spal for a 170 degree fan temp sensor and they told me to call American Volt company and I got it from them but they have a bunch of other stuff including Spal fans and they are like 30 percent cheaper than buying from somewher else. Jay a picture of your setup would be cool. No rush I cant get it for a few weks but would like to get everything together so I know
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The aftermarket fans, not so much, and in fact Spal is the only one that I've seen that will actually rate their fans at different pressure drops. They are more expensive than the cheaper fans, and for good reason.
Jay, if you follow my link above to the Maradyne fans and scroll through the product pages, they do this as well.
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Thanks Mike, good to know that they've tested their product at the different pressure drops.
As far as a shroud, I don't usually have room for them so I just mount the fans to the radiator with those tie wrap things. I try to fill up as much area of the radiator as I can with the fans, so I buy the biggest fans that will fit within the constraints of the radiator, water pump, and other front engine components. I always prefer pullers, but in the case of my supercharged FE I've had to use one pusher and one puller. Has seemed to work fine for me...
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Jay do you use a shroud assembly our do you mount them to the radiator with those zip tie things. I wound like to get 2 13 inch fans but I dont know if they would fit or did you make a shroud for it. What size fans are on it. I thought about putting a 16 and a 10 even. And yes I heard that about the Spal fans. Oh and to let everyone know I called Spal for a 170 degree fan temp sensor and they told me to call American Volt company and I got it from them but they have a bunch of other stuff including Spal fans and they are like 30 percent cheaper than buying from somewher else. Jay a picture of your setup would be cool. No rush I cant get it for a few weks but would like to get everything together so I know
I can state that the 70 Mustang with two 13" fans individually mounted to a 26x19 aluminum 2 pass was barely sufficient for drags trip use with a 460 HP 351C.
(https://raceabilene.com/misc/MustangRadA.jpg)
Track cooling performance improved when I built a shroud to mount the fans, about a 1" deep item formed from .030 aluminum. Note that this was still insufficient for any type of street use, primarily because the cheap eBay fans simply did not move enough air for the job IMHO. But it was a race car, so street use was not a design criteria.(https://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/images/mustang/radiator/ShroudB.jpg)
(https://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/images/mustang/radiator/rad_shroud.jpg)
Note 19" tall unit vs the radiator support
(https://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/images/mustang/radiator/MustangRad_10.jpg)
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The best values and performance are in the factory fans. A popular fan was the Continental MkVIII fan. Nice, big and powerful. But it takes up some depth and you might not have room for one big fan and have a lot of radiator width to cover. In that case, the Ford Contour fan was popular since it it a two fan setup and has some space in the center. You can go to Rockauto and just browse the inventory for something that might fit your setup. The Mk8 fan is no longer available new, but others are. You have to know how the fans are powered. A two pin single fan is the least desirable since it is a single speed fan and has the least flexibility. A three pin fan has a high and low speed. The twin fan setups stage the fans. These fans can be driven by the factory style controllers so a lot of the puzzle is already solved.
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The LT1 fan unit I use moves a lot of air. And the fans are individual single speed units, 12V. They draw some current but it is handled by 14 ga wire as I use a trailer plug/socket to connect the fan unit to the car. Makes for easy removal. The motors are OEM Delco units, should be available at any parts store. This specific fan assembly was a gimme from a friend and one of the motors was dead. $45 fixed it up.
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Is it safe to assume that upgrading the alternator is a requirement for the electric fans?
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Yes, you must upgrade to at least a 100amp alternator. Unless one is building a restoration, everyone should do the 3G alternator upgrade. It is very easy, not very expensive, and puts out enough power that there are no more dimming headlights, sagging blower fan, or unusual stereo performance. Everything electrical benefits from the upgrade.
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The car uses a small case 3G, so yes - you'd want a stouter replacement alternator. I would not try to run all that with an old 50A external regulator setup.
The OEM for that fan assembly seems to be "93-97 Camaro Firebird V8 LT1 5.7L Dual Cooling Fan Assembly". Rockauto lists several aftermarket units. The OEM looks like the best IMHO is you have the space. The Four Seasons unit might be worth a look. It's listed at $142 for the 97 Camaro 5.7L.
https://www.hawksmotorsports.com/93-97-camaro-firebird-lt1-electric-dual-fans-used/
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=3577956&cc=1035964&pt=2181&jsn=1490
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hey Falcon you going to the reunion
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Does today's pump gas cause engines to run hotter than the leaded gas of 60's thru 1970?
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One thing I can say is when my car came off the road the ethanol count around here in New York was 5 percent now it’s 10 percent. We will see what that does to the driving situation. I guess I could throw like a couple of gallons of race fuel in it. I got five gallons of c-12 a couple of days ago it was 125 bucks. Total robbery. Does anybody know how much fuel is at the track.
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>hey Falcon you going to the reunion
No, haven't made any travel plans other than the balloon festival in Albuquerque and some races this fall.
Yes, modern cars run hotter. Keeps the oil clean, less emissions, makes the aluminum radiators work better. Higher temps have also been tested and shown to reduce wear.
Fuel - everything here has been 10% for about 20 years. I put Sta-bil in my 5 gallon jugs and haven't seen any issues. I park the small engine stuff over winter and do nothing. I have a 6500w generator for sale and it sat unused for 8 months, started on the 4th pull. The Falcon uses about 60/40 VP110/91 pump. No problems there lol. If I put the 427W in it, it'd run either straight VP110 or methanol. That's a 12.5:1 motor so right on the edge for 110.
The drum of VP110 I bought this spring was $440. So that's about $8.15/gallon. Methanol was up around $220. I could get that a little cheaper by driving 100 miles or so.
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Running a 427W in the tight compartment of a 1985 Mustang I found that adding hood louvers made a huge difference in maintaining engine and underhood temps.
I used to run the big electric fan deal but went back to the factory type clutch fan with a slightly more aggressive clutch. With 180 stat it stays in the 170-180 range.
Giving the hot airflow from radiator a path to escape helps greatly.
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427lx I do agree with the louvers. They have the 67 GT 500 hood that fits the regular mustangs and some of them have louvers, but I think even having the scoop to let air out has to be good. I think I remember Ross saying the same thing.
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I ran a 68 Mustang with a 428 and stock cooling system.
Car had a repro Shelby hood with the louvers.
Never had any overheat problems.