FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: blykins on August 20, 2022, 06:57:50 AM
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I went down to the shop where I normally dyno my engines yesterday to help turn some wrenches on an older Tunnel Port engine. A customer of theirs brought it in to dyno, as they had just bought a car with this engine in it.
My buddy had put a pull on it and it didn't sound right at the top of the pull, so he shut it down. After he started snooping around, he found that one side of the remote oil filter adapter was hot and the other side wasn't... Never good when there's no oil pressure going to the engine. Just to clear things up out of the gate, the engine was brought there with it in the current state that it's in. It was just bolted to the dyno and fired up.
We drained the oil, dropped the pan, and then flipped the engine over on an engine stand. It was advertised to be 474ci, so I was expecting to see a newer stroker crankshaft and a SBC/BBC rod journal of some sort. Instead, it had a neutral balance 428 crankshaft, with some Ford 400 connecting rods, and some old-school custom Venolia pistons. The crank had been offset ground to a .010" under 400/Cleveland journal diameter, which put it at a 4.100" stroke.
After we finished scratching our heads, the owner showed up with the build sheet, from Jim Kuntz in 1995. I know 1995 wasn't really that long ago, but after we sit down and think about it, it was 27 years ago.......
That engine "supposedly" made 775 hp back in the day and it cost $17500 back in 1995. Back before stroker cranks, this was the only way to get cubic inches.
The rest of the combo is an older Comp Cams solid roller, along with a set of 660's on top.
One of the guys is running up today to my shop to pick up some bearings. The only thing that really saved the engine was that someone had put standard bearings in, on a .020"/.010" crankshaft. Otherwise, it would have ate itself alive.
Just to clear things up, it didn't come from Kuntz's shop this way, there had been a few owners in between the dyno time and the time the current owner bought it. Hopefully they'll get it lit off this week and we can see what it makes on the dyno down there, but I doubt they'll try and stretch it out, considering the factory 400 connecting rods......
Some pics...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52298207753_7f0a480395_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52298200986_0877f33c4b_z.jpg)
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Hopefully the owner has you up grade it with better parts. I would definitely change the crank rods and maybe pistons. It probably could use a new cam and better rockers.
I bet it would gain some hp, as is I bet it doesn’t hit 775. My guess is around 690.
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Kuntz & Craft built many of these 474 stroker engines.
They used a 428 crank offset ground to 4.125" stroke using 400M connecting rods.
K&C had tested the combination (with prepped 400M rods) to 8000 rpm.
Check out Super Ford magazine March 1993.
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Don't mean to nitpic, but it is 351M rods, or 400 Cleveland rods, no 400 modified engines built. It was the 351M that was the oddball at the time. Those rods are actually quite beefy. The 400 Cleveland can be made to perform quite well with simple hot rod principles applied to it. Joe-JDC
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About the exact same time I rebuilt mine with an offset ground $$ steel crank BBC 4340 H beam steel rods with ARP bolts and Arias pistons. I also used the FPP (POP) bushed rockers and gun drilled molly shafts.
Offset ground cast cranks to 4.125 stroke with beefy/heavy 400 rods with 3/8 nuts swinging to 8000 rpm sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I’m also not a fan of unbushed aluminum rockers. With better parts available using the 2.20 journal I don’t see a reason to use old OEM parts.
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We always called the 400 a 400M.
351M used the same block as 400(M)
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/0902phr-jon-kaase-400m-ford-engine/
I guess many just called the 400 the 400M - rightly or wrongly.
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Well, this forum will nitpic a suffix on a FE head for weeks, but to be technically correct, it is 351M, 400 Cleveland. I bought one of the first 351M engines in a F-150, so I am keenly aware of the arguments over those engines. Kept the truck for 14 years and stroked it to 408 cubic inches to tow my race car. Joe-JDC
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Just to make it more fun, 400s had SBC bells in cars, later Truck block had 460 pattern
Very capable engine with the right parts, but certainly nothing designed for 700 hp or 8000 rpm, especially with heavy slugs for pistons
I built a 400 rod 427W years ago with parts from PAW, late 90s maybe? Sure didn’t look like anything I’d trust. I’d run it to see but cap the rpm too
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SBC bell? I have a SBF C-5 bellhousing that fits the 460 Ford. Joe-JDC
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Critter
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I have heard about some 351M-400 blocks having a SB FORD bellhousing pattern, but every one of those engine that I have ever seen in person, have had the tall 429/460 bellhousing pattern. Regardless, any factory 351M rod that I have ever seen looked pretty spindley to me, especially compared to a C7AE-B 390-428 rod.
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Jack Roush's personal Cobra, the last time I rode in it, had a 351M-blocked engine with a set of the NASCAR-Yates-design heads and accoutrements. It was about 450 CID due to the various parts used. I asked him why the somewhat odd-ball concoction and he said, "Just to prove that it's a good combination." I know for a fact that it would peg the speedo. :)
KS
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73 LTD, 400 with FMX transmission has the SBF bellhousing.
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I believe this fmx application is correct. I have only seen one in person in my life. I have not specifically searched for it but I have spent plenty of time in junkyards and we had a fleet of trucks with 351m/400s in them. We used to mud race a 400 with 4bbl Cleveland top end on it and sprayed a 200 shot on top of that. Never had any probs but had limiter set to 6500
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73 LTD, 400 with FMX transmission has the SBF bellhousing.
Correct. 73 is the only one I have seen, although I didn't realize it was tied to the FMX
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I've looked for one of those "small bell 400" blocks for years, never seen one. A long while back I spent an entire Saturday in the big wrecking yard here, looked at 45 cars with 400s. Not a single SBF style unit. Note that IIRC, 400 blocks in the years before 77 had a valley cracking problem. So finding a SBF 400 may not be the holy grail you might think. Easier to find a C4 (C5?) from a 78, 79 T-bird with a 351M that had the 341M/400/429/460 bell patterns to pan fill C4. I think the door plate trans code is "X". I have two of those. Except for that oddball 400, all 351M/400s use the "460" bell pattern. Also - it's easy enough to buy a JW adapter bell to go from the 460 pattern to a C4 and such.
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Well, got some follow-up news, but unfortunately not good news.
My buddy got new bearings rolled in the Tunnel Port, so I rolled down this morning to go help on the dyno.
First lick out of the gate was 610 hp @ 6500. We didn't know much about the combination since someone just brought the engine to my buddy's shop to dyno, so we started out conservatively at 38° timing. It showed on the plug that it wanted a little more, so we gave it 41 (from my experience, the TP engines like 40-42°). It dropped 10 hp and then when we put the timing back to where it was, it lost 10 more. That's usually a tell-tale sign of bearing issues, so we shut it down before it did something bad. Cut the filter open and there was copper all in it, so that's that.