FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: blykins on July 07, 2022, 11:42:25 AM
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I haven't posted any builds in a while. I've been in a little funk because of struggles to get parts in and get engines out the door. Parts availability hasn't really bounced back since 2020 and everything is slow or hard to get. I've been planning this build for a little bit and since my interest has waned, I thought I would post it up here in hopes that you guys will give me a coach's talk to get everything going.
Let me preempt everything by saying that Tunnel Port heads have always been my favorite. I don't care that the intakes have big tubes running through them. They're just cool and when properly prepped, they make some big horsepower. As a matter of fact, some of my highest horsepower FE's have been TP engines. The majority of them have been 465ci to 511ci, but while I was sitting and pondering the meaning of life a little while ago, I realized that I had never built a smaller displacement TP engine. One thought led to another and then I started looking around the shop for spare parts. I still have some Project JJ parts left over........timing cover.......crankshaft......timing set..... Then I remembered that I had a C8AX oil pan sitting in the corner. Only "major" parts I needed were the block, heads, and intake, so I started scouring my normal sources for those items.
Ended up doing a little horse trading for some new parts and ended up with a set of fairly nice TP heads, a 1x4 intake, and a 427 S/O service block. Bingo.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52173306420_f037ef6e75_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52172832136_4ea0040128_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52111340097_f55b001a56_c.jpg)
Also snagged a little Dominator carburetor.....
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52126454839_b96ee618b2_c.jpg)
So, now we have a little more direction. Bore should finish up at 4.250" and JJ's 352 crank will be used, which will put us at 397 cubic inches.
I sent the oil pan and intake off to Bobby Crumpley to be vapor blasted. Here's the end results for that:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52126240433_4e8e8ef9f8_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52173304445_4abfbdaf9d_c.jpg)
I also sent the carb down to Drew and he's currently working on it for me:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52200990890_9289f63732_c.jpg)
For the rotating assembly, I will be using a set of custom R&R aluminum rods coupled with a set of custom Diamond pistons. Both of which have yet to be ordered as I'm waiting on the head work to be completed.
The heads are getting a set of SI stainless intake valves and a set of Manley stainless exhaust valves. The brands are mismatched, because (believe it or not) there are no companies that had blanks in stock for both valves. I tried Ferrea, I tried SI, I tried Manley, I tried Mast, and I tried Victory. So I did what I could. Once the heads are fully machined and set up correctly, they will be "ported" along with the intake manifold. I put "ported" in quotes because they normally end up smaller than they were from the factory in terms of port volume, but end up flowing around 370 cfm.
The camshaft is one of my custom solid rollers that I had Comp Cams grind for me. They also performed their "MSE" treatment, which is a micropolishing treatment on the surfaces of the journals and lobes.
This will be a long work in progress, just because of the amount of custom parts involved, port work, etc. However, the goal is to have a nostalgic looking, odd-ball displacement, Tunnel Port that screams. I know that there were some engines built back "in the day" with the 427/352, bore/stroke combination and also some built with the 428/330, bore/stroke combination. I have never handled one of those combinations, so that's all the more incentive to get some more data into my head.
That's all I have for now.
I do a lot of "dyno mule" builds just to try new parts or concepts out and often sell them after completion. My good engine builder buddy, Dale Meers, looked me in the eye the other day and said, "You absolutely can NOT sell this one. You need to quit talking about it, find a car, and do some racing." We will see.
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Great built, Brent!! I'm looking forward to what you can get out of it.
What size is the 4500 and what is the plan to attach the 4500 carb, to the 4150 base?
Regarding the valves, are they stock diameter?
What is the basic max rpm range, you are shooting for?
A dry sump would have a lot of advantages in this build.
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How much RPM do you think the crank will take? I'd like to see that engine go to 8500...
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How much RPM do you think the crank will take? I'd like to see that engine go to 8500...
That's a good question. LOL Aluminum rods and short, light pistons will certainly help.
And I would too....
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I do a lot of "dyno mule" builds just to try new parts or concepts out and often sell them after completion. My good engine builder buddy, Dale Meers, looked me in the eye the other day and said, "You absolutely can NOT sell this one. You need to quit talking about it, find a car, and do some racing." We will see.
I'll second that - that's a cool build. And I 2nd your friend's motion because dyno is one thing, it's a whole 'nuther joy to kick a trick build in the ass and ride it down the strip. We're all chomping on the supply chain deals, I got a $170,000 in network items on order at work and have maybe 1/20th of it in possession.
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I think the big bore short stroke combo is going to surprise you.
With the light weigh rotating assembly you could see 93-9500 RPM.
Greg
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I think the big bore short stroke combo is going to surprise you.
With the light weigh rotating assembly you could see 93-9500 RPM.
Greg
It doesn't have enough camshaft to turn that kind of rpm. But I bet it would sound good if it did....
There's a lot of times that I prefer the big bore/short stroke combinations, but I'll have to give it to the guys who turn the high rpms with the long stroke combos. The Mountain Motor Pro Stock guys turn about 9000 with a 5.750" stroke. A lot of the time, it's not the stroke "number" that matters, it's the weight of the rotating assembly, among a few other variables.
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This looks like a really cool build!
Thanks for sharing your experimenting with different combinations.
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How much RPM do you think the crank will take? I'd like to see that engine go to 8500...
Hey Brent, I still have that 391 steel crank available. It will balance easier with those aluminum rods.
Current stroke is 3.99, BBC journal, 1.90w, nitrided. Machined for FE.
Mike
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How much RPM do you think the crank will take? I'd like to see that engine go to 8500...
Hey Brent, I still have that 391 steel crank available. It will balance easier with those aluminum rods.
Current stroke is 3.99, BBC journal, 1.90w, nitrided. Machined for FE.
Mike
I appreciate it, Mike, but I'm going to stick with the 3.500" stroke. A 4" stroke is almost getting back to the cubic inches that I have build experience with. The 352 crank will balance fine with the light rods.
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Now that is a really cool build Brent! I also like the idea of a really high rpm engine yet understand the cam does have limits. Still, it would be cool to see some A-B runs with a bigger stick and more rpms. That or....beg, borrow or steal a dual quad TP intake with again some A-B tests.
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I am looking forward to this one, what a cool build.
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Cool build Brent, if nothing else you need a good shop truck to drop that down in! Every shop truck needs tunnel ports dont they?? All seriousness id like to see you throw a 3bl in there on the dyno to see how it stacks up to the dominator.
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You might remember me talking about it - I did a "stock stroke experiment" with a 351C. Stock crank, neutral balance ($$$ - 4 chunks of Mallory), lighter H beam rods and very light pistons. Off the shelf Crane 238 solid flat cam, home ported 4V heads with tongues, 4V Funnelweb intake. "750" DP Frakencarb with ProForm and Holley parts. Never dynoed, but made over 500 on gas based on weight and MPH on the track, shifting at 6800. Easy 530+ on methanol had I tried it. Great motor, pulled like a jet in the lights on the 1/8 mile. Won a lot of rounds with that combo. Block gave up during its second season on track and something caused the crank thrust surface to get eaten away. Hope the new 427 you're helping me with makes easy power like that LOL. Short strokers rock.
My crazy dream - 180" FED with a stack injected 289+powerglide turning 9K at the shift. 8)
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in the 60s maybe early 70s 396 fe were used for a short time on our tracks west central wis. as I remember they used the 361 steel truck cranks and lemans rods-but also narrowed nascar rods the engines were tunnelports - to turn rpms for power rods/pistons were heavy and valve train issues caused more problems than a 454 tunnelport pulling harder off the corners at lower rpms---the cars were probably the fastest short track in the country 5/8 paved at lacrosse wis.---any one remember dick trickle/tommy reffner-- trickle and fe ford power won well over 1000 races more than 70 in one season in the midwest --few mopars ran and fe power out ran the 496/498 chev. at the time!!! I would run a nice 361 steel crank for a build like this - good insurance! and not too expensive to do! with lighter/better parts today--- turn th rpms up!! JS oldiron
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This is gonna be a neat FE. I don't see where the coaches "talk" is necessary. ;D But ya, I'm sick to death of the long lead times too. The intake looks amazing after vapor blasting btw.
What kind of rocker gear are you pondering, Brent?
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Here's the old style "396" pistons, trim to fit the chambers
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Here's the old style "396" pistons, trim to fit the chambers
That looks like it would be more at home, in a MEL chamber.
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I can’t give enough thumbs up for this build. Thanks Brent.
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How does one vapor blast?
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The process uses high pressure water and abrasive media instead of compressed air and media. It's has a lot of benefits, primarily no dust.
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I could probably be talked into a 361 crank, but that's a big chunk of change in machine work to make one fit and they are much heavier than a cast crank. I think a properly prepped cast crank will do just fine for the horsepower that it will make.
Kevin, I'll be using some custom steel T&D stuff with some special prep to the cylinder heads.
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thank you Brent for sticking your neck out and experimenting with this FE stuff.it takes someone with a big set to do these experimental engines openly in front of a big audience.i dont see how you get anything done hauling that big set around all day in a wheelbarrow.
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Brent - sorry if I missed it - what will you do on the 352 crankshaft journal sizes?
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I love this build. My first 427 was a Tunnel Port at age 18. I sand dragged it in a ‘70 F250 4x4.
It taught a lot of 460’s and BBC’s a lesson. Came on like a two stroke lol. Tunnel Ports will always be the coolest. Can’t wait to see how the build progresses
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Brent - sorry if I missed it - what will you do on the 352 crankshaft journal sizes?
They will stay stock dimension.
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Brent, what’s the pedigree on the service block? P block?
Cool build
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We have a 2x4 intake sitting on the bench waiting to be tested. It has 3D printed air foils that go around the tubes. Intake was ported to make up for the cross sectional area that was lost because of the air foils. I'm interested to see how much, if any, benefit there is. The idea is fairly "out there", but you never know if you never try.
Here's the only picture I can find of it. This is the initial rough-in of the foils, it's much more refined than this now. And no, we didn't chop up a perfectly good TP intake, this one was rough.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJMBmkgT/TP-Intake.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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My first involvement with the TP approach to FE engines was on a then almost new '67 Mustang. I won't go again through the entire story, but I managed to promote a 'back-door' deal to acquire an entire upper end that had been used in the LeMans project. I got the heads, the dual-plane dual quad manifold, and a pair of 652 centersquirters. The engine, including a parts-counter short block, was backed by a C6 we put together with help from contacts at T&C Livonia where both Brother Lon and I worked at the time.
The major purpose for the car was not only daily transportation, but the street wars taking place on Telegraph and Gratiot, and also the various expressways of Metro Detroit.
Later on the engine swallowed a valve and damaged both heads, a couple of pistons, and the block. We replaced it with a medium riser and it became more of a cruiser for a number of years.
We ultimately decided to return to the TP approach and had Jim Dove build a set of heads for us. During the discussion on details of design, I availed myself of contacts at EEE and got up to date, primarily from Mose Nowland, on all the engineering that FoMoCo had done on the TP and I specifically asked for input as to anything that had been found to generate additional flow in the area around the tubes in the intake runners. I was told, unequivocally, that there had been no worthwhile advances.
I'm, therefore, very interested in seeing the results you discover.
KS
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On aftermarket builds, I've had a lot of good luck out of 465ci combinations (4.310"/3.980"). It's one of those bore/stroke combos that seems to really perform well, kind of like the 4.125-4.150"/4" combo in SBF's.
I've done quite a few of those 465ci combos, using both ported TP heads and TFS heads and the ported TP heads always make more horsepower given similar carburetor, compression, and camshaft specs. These combos that I'm speaking of make about 670 hp with a 340cfm TFS head and about 700 hp with a 370-375cfm TP head. Do I think the tubes in the intake hinder things? Yeah. Do I think that it's a major hurdle? Nah... The major hurdle is making the pushrods fit in the tubes with aftermarket valvetrain.
With all of that being said, making more comparisons, I've had 500ci FE's with "Stage 3" Edelbrocks make about the same horsepower as the 465ci Tunnel Port engines.
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Block is here.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52234123660_9cefbf0f98_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52232651257_3f8c3479b9_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52233644336_57e72a88d6_z.jpg)
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looks clean. I thought you were using a 390 block. Never mind I went back. Is that a STD bore block.
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I think it will end up a 4.250" bore size.
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When I had TP heads, it seemed to be a big hurdle to get the exhaust to flow. Recollection was that the TP exhaust port was a different and awkward shape compared to the MR ports. After much massaging, we managed to get the flow with a 1.75" valve about equal to a mildly ported Ed head with 1.65" valves.
Is the exhaust flow not really a factor on the TP head performance? Are there tricks to getting to port to flow well? Do you significantly increase exhaust duration to compensate for the generous intake flow?
Thanks for giving this combo a go. Should be an interesting build.
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To be honest, I’ve not really focused that highly on trying to get the exhaust port up to modern numbers. I make it up with the camshaft.
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The exhaust on the TPs referenced above were, for all practical purposes, duplicates of the MR lay-out. When I had Jim Dove make up the last pair we used in Brother Lon's Mustang, we used Jim's own design for the exhaust. The exhaust runners were raised, spread further apart, and reshaped. The entire exhaust part of the head was different to such a degree that they were not recognizable as FE.
We had to build completely custom headers to match. And, so as not to compromise the header design, we removed the spring towers completely and went to coil-overs out in the wheel wells. The mounts for the upper A-arms were lowered considerably and moved outboard. Tubular A-arms were much shorter. We also had to re-do the steering link.
KS
KS
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I looked up our flow data on our drag car TP head. Intake flows 384, exhaust flows 221. That's with almost no intake port work and about a week of exhaust work.
Cammer, I think these are the heads you are describing? We had considered running these on our drag car, but like you mentioned, some shock tower work or removal was going to be needed to get them to work in the Mustang. Moving the exhaust around like that was a very solid idea by Dove, it's about the best you can do for the FE without twisting and canting the valves like a cleveland.
(https://i.postimg.cc/brvmmStP/TP-Dove-Exhaust-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZdXtjvg/TP-Dove-Exhaust-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/2yX2MjQZ/TP-Dove-Exhaust-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Brent, take a look at the rear bulkhead on that block. Likely will have a large raised P on it.
I have one here that was cast 15 days later. Also shopped a 6/15 block like you have there a few years back but did not land it.
How is the sonic map on it?
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I looked up our flow data on our drag car TP head. Intake flows 384, exhaust flows 221. That's with almost no intake port work and about a week of exhaust work.
That's a pretty good exhaust port for a TP head. We get that intake flow, but it's with a much smaller CSA than factory. Makes the heads a lot more responsive on street engines, especially smaller displacement engines.
When I say "we", it's my head guy. You don't want me within 6' of a die grinder. Never been that artistic.
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I looked up our flow data on our drag car TP head. Intake flows 384, exhaust flows 221. That's with almost no intake port work and about a week of exhaust work.
Cammer, I think these are the heads you are describing? We had considered running these on our drag car, but like you mentioned, some shock tower work or removal was going to be needed to get them to work in the Mustang. Moving the exhaust around like that was a very solid idea by Dove, it's about the best you can do for the FE without twisting and canting the valves like a cleveland.
(https://i.postimg.cc/brvmmStP/TP-Dove-Exhaust-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZdXtjvg/TP-Dove-Exhaust-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/2yX2MjQZ/TP-Dove-Exhaust-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Yes, very much the same changes. With the deck surface on the bench, a piece of rolled-up paper inserted into the exhaust runner sticks up very obviously. We were able to build headers with a straight extension at least six inches long before it was at all necessary for the primary tubes to begin to turn. It was common for observers to ask, "What kind of engine is that."
Lon ultimately sold the car. I understand it's in New Zealand now.
KS
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Rods came in. I'll be deviating a hair from the original scope of the build. Stroke will stay the same, but we will be using a new crankshaft featuring one of the Honda rod bearing sizes.
Rods are custom R&R aluminum rods. They are 7.250" long, but only weigh 600g. As a comparison, the 6.700" K1 rods shown below have a 745g total weight. With the smaller bearing diameter, the big end size is much smaller, even when compared to a K1/Molnar sized rod big end.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52317860184_ccdf37f75b_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52317437326_0260d6837d_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52316638142_36a3c470f8_z.jpg)
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Looking good!
Will be nice to see above superstock power levels from an FE.
Perhaps well over 2 HP/Ci inch.
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Looking good!
Will be nice to see above superstock power levels from an FE.
Perhaps well over 2 HP/Ci inch.
Not a chance.
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Looking forward to it Brent
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Not a chance.
Is this a pump gas small cam build? I am sorry if I read more into this.
I assumed with a 380 CFM head, short stroke, aluminum rods for high rpm that one would
easily reach 2+ HP per CFM.
Anyhow, doesn't matter - it looks like a very fun project!
Thank you for showing.
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Not a chance.
Is this a pump gas small cam build? I am sorry if I read more into this.
I assumed with a 380 CFM head, short stroke, aluminum rods for high rpm that one would
easily reach 2+ HP per CFM.
Anyhow, doesn't matter - it looks like a very fun project!
Thank you for showing.
Pretty stark contrast between 2 hp per cubic inch and 2 hp per cfm.
This engine will be pump gas capable, mainly from the standpoint that it would take an extreme amount of dome to get the compression ratio up. When those extreme amounts of dome are used, you often lose what you gained just from the lack of flame propagation.
Certainly not a small cam though.
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About what is the delta $ between the custom aluminum and the steel h-beam rods?
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About what is the delta $ between the custom aluminum and the steel h-beam rods?
Fully custom, built to spec, aluminum rods are about $1300.
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I have always wondered about the streetability of aluminum rods. As of recently I have shifted my mindset on things like this.....because our cars don't get driven enough to worry about them meeting their life expectancy. Seems like the engines get changed out because they have timed out, not worn out. Same thing goes for the Honda bearing size. It's harder on bearings, but will it ever actually really matter?
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I have always wondered about the streetability of aluminum rods. As of recently I have shifted my mindset on things like this.....because our cars don't get driven enough to worry about them meeting their life expectancy. Seems like the engines get changed out because they have timed out, not worn out. Same thing goes for the Honda bearing size. It's harder on bearings, but will it ever actually really matter?
With the recent billets of the past couple decades, I wouldn't be scared of running aluminum rods on the street. Bill Miller (BME) says that he has a couple of shop trucks with 100k miles on them with aluminum rods. Mike of R&R rods says that he has a lot of street import customers running around Florida with aluminum rods. I think if you set the bearing and piston/head clearances up right and treat the engine well, they will last a really long time.
I wouldn't necessarily say that the smaller journal diameters are harder on bearings. Bearing speed goes down and the width is still there. Cup guys have ran them for decades and obviously the forced induction import guys beat them to death.
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Some years ago, I had a discussion with Bill Miller regarding the use of his aluminum rods on the street. He told me of an arrangement he has with an engine rebuilder who has a contract with a trucking company who run a fleet of tank trucks hauling crude oil from wells in Texas. The rebuilder uses BME rods for that application. He persuaded me. I'll undoubtedly use aluminum rods in all the engines I ever build or have built. (Although I'm looking at a project that might well use rods made from titanium.) :)
KS
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I really like the Honda rod bearing idea.
I ran a stock bore 427 with 361 truck crank turned down to chrysler rod journal size in my Thunderbolt clone. We used Bill Miller aluminum 7" rods with dove standard configuration unported Hi-Riser heads and his Hi-Riser tunnel wedge. With a crane .600/.600 256@.050 solid lift cam. It made 550hp at 6500rpm.
Those aluminum rods had been raced up Pikes Peak three times and I put 150 passes on them at the drag strip, never had a moments trouble out of them.
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That used to be the trick with the Chrysler turned down journals, i have a couple steel cranks cut down like that.
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Yes, Ed Pink long ago solved the SOHC crank bearing issues on Don Prudhomme's Lou Baney, Brand Ford AA/FD with the Chrysler sized bearing. Apparently Connie Kalitta's AA/FD also benefited by this change. Oddly, Pink doesn't mention this:
https://www.enginelabs.com/features/interviews/the-old-master-ed-pink-reflects-on-sohc-irl-and-midget-engines/