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FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: frnkeore on October 14, 2021, 07:42:16 PM

Title: Jay's Intake Adapter, On a Diet
Post by: frnkeore on October 14, 2021, 07:42:16 PM
First, I asked Jay about posting this, 3 weeks ago and he gave his approval so, here we go.

As many know, I bought Brent's JJ tunnel port manifold and carbs. I hadn't thought about it at the time but, it is VERY heavy, about 80 lb with 2 10.5 lb carbs. Although the adapter isn't all that heavy ~ 29 lb complete and 25 lb bare, I noticed there was a lot of aluminum that could be removed so, I made a holding fixture, out of some 1" thick scrape pieces. I had cut a plate, years ago to turn round and these were 2 of the left over pieces. The back sides were cut for a snug fit, into the table slots, then drilled 1/2" and counter bored for 1/2 x 13 Allen bolts, 3/8 x 16, were added also,  centered on the slot, after that, I made hollow dowels .466 to fit the end manifold bolt holes, that ranged from .470 - .467. It holds the manifold, fairly rigid.

From there, I outlined the tunnel ram ports, on to the adapter ports and started cutting with a long 3/4 endmill, with a 1/16 corner radius. You can compare the picture from Jay's web site, to the cuts I made. There was a lot of aluminum removed. Notice the red circled hole, in the rear of the manifold. That was solid aluminum so, I milled a elongated 3/4" hole, threw to the valley, on each side.

More to come.


Title: Re: Jay's Intake Adater, On a Diet
Post by: Cyclone03 on October 14, 2021, 10:09:47 PM
Nice work.
The “heat riser” area can be cut away if your heads have them blocked. You could also remove material from the side of the pushrod passages maybe just cut them away.

How much weight have you trimmed away so far?
Title: Re: Jay's Intake Adater, On a Diet
Post by: frnkeore on October 15, 2021, 02:24:32 AM
Nice work.
The “heat riser” area can be cut away if your heads have them blocked. You could also remove material from the side of the pushrod passages maybe just cut them away.

How much weight have you trimmed away so far?
I want to leave this manifold functional for most applications. I'll be 77 next month so, I won't always have the manifold. I know that I could have removed the outside surfaces of the push rod area but, I choose to make it a 1/8" wall. That wall was at least 3/8 thick.

I've taken 2 1/2 lb, so far and I figure another 1 to 1 1/2 on the bottom. So, 3 1/2 to 4 total. The top is basically done, including the valley cover, I modified it by grooving the perimeter and removing metal in the logo area, too. The last operation will be the bottom, it is mostly 5/8 thick and I'll trim it down to 3/8, where I can. The water passage area is much thinner on the bottom, so I'll leave that part alone.

I'm hoping Brent will read this, as I have a question regarding the push rod passages. As shown in 2 of the pictures (1 here and next to last on the other post also), all the push rods were rubbing, in the bottom ~1", one heavier than the others. I'm wondering what diameter the push rods were and if that might be the result of push rod flex. Flex came to mind and if so, that is one of the reasons I to choose to leave the passage there, for added support for flex.

There are a lot of other little areas that I could remove metal but, I don't think it would amount to but, 1/2 lb max and would require different set ups. All this work was done with just the one fixture and I will have to make another for the bottom.

The water transfer passages seem restrictive to me and since this combo may find it's way to the street, I decided to open them up to about 9/16 x 7/8, as large as felt safe in going w/o studying the area.

I forgot to mention in the first post, that this adapter is #006 and was ported by Joe.
Title: Re: Jay's Intake Adapter, On a Diet
Post by: blykins on October 15, 2021, 05:42:13 AM
If I'm not mistaken, the early adapters had smaller pushrod holes.   I found this out when I started checking for pushrod clearance and had to spend quite a bit of time grinding for clearance.  I think that aspect of the adapter was revised later on.

Any contact would have been because of deflection.  I used 3/8" pushrods.  Contact on deflection is ok, and it's actually not a bad thing at all, because the intake tube will lend support to the pushrod like this, kind of like a guide plate.  Even pushrods for FE roller lifter setups are not short and with 700 lbs of spring pressure and 7500 rpm, they are not going to stay straight.
Title: Re: Jay's Intake Adapter, On a Diet
Post by: frnkeore on October 15, 2021, 11:59:38 AM
These push rod passages are .520, on average, top and bottom.
Title: Re: Jay's Intake Adapter, On a Diet
Post by: frnkeore on October 15, 2021, 07:20:56 PM
I did a little more carving today, before tearing the setup down.

It occurred to me that I hadn't shown the manifold on the fixture so, that's one picture, the next is the back cut, I put on the back side of the port flanges and the last one, is the breather cover. It was .34 thick and flat, with 2 mounting holes. I C'bored the mounting holes for the button head screws, made a boss for the 1/2" pipe hole, .200 deep and angled the bottom out. A 90°, -10 fitting will go into the tapped hole.
Title: Re: Jay's Intake Adapter, On a Diet
Post by: TomP on October 15, 2021, 07:32:56 PM
Nice work
Title: Re: Jay's Intake Adapter, On a Diet
Post by: frnkeore on October 16, 2021, 01:00:20 AM
Thank you, Tom.
Title: Re: Jay's Intake Adapter, On a Diet
Post by: jayb on October 16, 2021, 08:27:26 PM
Just an FYI, the intake adapter I did for Joe had smaller pushrod holes at his request.  More room for porting the intake adapter before breaking into the pushrod holes, I guess.  My standard pushrod holes are 0.625" wide; the ones I did for Joe, and actually for quite a few other folks, are 0.520" wide.  I do custom pushrod hole sizes and locations on a regular basis for intake adapter customers.  For example, a lot of guys are running a 0.250" offset on the intake rockers, to allow for a wider port.  For those guys, I move the whole intake pushrod hole over 0.250".
Title: Re: Jay's Intake Adapter, On a Diet
Post by: frnkeore on October 17, 2021, 01:01:29 AM
Thanks for clarifying that, Jay.

Do you have any 58mm IR manifolds in the works, for the adapter?
Title: Re: Jay's Intake Adapter, On a Diet
Post by: jayb on October 17, 2021, 07:25:33 PM
Sorry Frank, nothing like that in the works - Jay
Title: Re: Jay's Intake Adapter, On a Diet
Post by: frnkeore on October 20, 2021, 07:10:21 PM
Well, I finished this project and I remove ~ 5.5 lb from the manifold. Aluminum weights ~.10 lb per Cu In so, I removed about 55 Cu In of material or a block that would be a 3.8" cube.

The numbers written near the dist, are the weight of the bare manifold 20.06 and the weight of it assembled, 24.6. The manifold bare, weighed 25 lb before I started.

I made a change, on the bottom since I last took pictures. I had done the area of the push rods holes, with a 1" ball end mill but, 3 different cuts of 2 different depths (center the deepest). Overall, it looked like one radius, so, I grabbed a 1 3/8 ball end mill and placed in the cuts and it look pretty good so, I chucked it up and the final cut is 7/8 deep (from the bottom edges of the manifold), with that 1 3/8 ball end mill. The minimum port thickness, in that area is .33 so, there is plenty left.

I took .210 total, off the bottom of the manifold, back to the rear of the inspection cover, behind that, I took .110, to the china wall sealing area.

I also included a picture of the holding fixture, again made from scrape it had. They are 1.13 thick pieces, I keyed the bottom, to again fit my table slots, with 1/2 x 13 bolts, C'bored into the aluminum. Most Bridgeport type table slots, are on exactly 2.500 centers so, I can reuse them w/o changing the machine work on them. There is .002 clearance on the sides and .005 from end to end. That way, there is minimal clamping force needed to hold the manifold ridged.

Next up, is the Weiand TP manifold base, it weighs over 16 lb. I can't really do anything with the top, even though it's twice as heavy as the base, with both carbs, it's 33 lb.
Title: Re: Jay's Intake Adapter, On a Diet
Post by: pbf777 on October 21, 2021, 12:32:07 PM
   
Nice work.
The “heat riser” area can be cut away if your heads have them blocked. You could also remove material from the side of the pushrod passages maybe just cut them away.

     Yeah, go ahead and remove the material creating the pushrod surrounds, as if you think about this actually serves no real useful function.    ;)

     Scott.
Title: Re: Jay's Intake Adapter, On a Diet
Post by: frnkeore on October 25, 2021, 07:48:30 PM
Well, I finished up my work on the Weiand TR.

I cut the center out of the the bottom and then took another .070, off that, then cut around the part #, on top. The weight difference is 14.44 vs 16.36 or 1.92 lb.
Title: Re: Jay's Intake Adapter, On a Diet
Post by: Cyclone03 on October 25, 2021, 08:51:02 PM
   
Nice work.
The “heat riser” area can be cut away if your heads have them blocked. You could also remove material from the side of the pushrod passages maybe just cut them away.

     Yeah, go ahead and remove the material creating the pushrod surrounds, as if you think about this actually serves no real useful function.    ;)

     Scott.

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10538.0;attach=16175;image

If you look at this pic all the pushrods have “tubes” they pass through. The internal side of those tubes could be removed,my Performer RPM even has some of these areas open. So yes no real useful purpose. Now the ones next to water passages may not be a good idea.
Title: Re: Jay's Intake Adapter, On a Diet
Post by: jayb on October 26, 2021, 04:32:20 PM
Frank, why did you leave the ends of the tunnel ram center in place?  Those could be cut out with no ill effects, I've done it literally 50+ times on the Weiand tunnel ram...
Title: Re: Jay's Intake Adapter, On a Diet
Post by: frnkeore on October 26, 2021, 04:59:52 PM
Ok, I'm finished with this combo. I have a net saving of 8 1/2 lb. As you can see in this last picture, the finished weight is 70.18 lb, including intake gaskets and the studs & nuts (in the Clevite box) along with the 4150 conversation.

If I were to charge myself, it would be about $70 per pound, not including the fixtures. Not a horrible price,  considering it was all aluminum and 85 cu in or a cube of almost 4.5".
Title: Re: Jay's Intake Adapter, On a Diet
Post by: frnkeore on October 26, 2021, 05:08:09 PM
Jay, I just thought that it would be more stable over multiple heat cycles. No other reason.