FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: CV355 on March 25, 2021, 01:11:03 PM
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While routing transmission cooler lines last night, I noticed two threaded holes in the lower passenger side of the 428 block. They happened to be 7/16-14 thread. Because I have headers partially installed, I couldn't get a good line of sight to see if this is something missing a plug for some reason, but it seemed to bottom out after about 3/4". What are these actually for, and would there be any issue if I fabricated brackets for looming the cooler lines using these holes?
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I believe the holes were used for an engine cradle during assembly line work. Some cars do use them for cooler line attachment points, so that would work fine. The holes shouldn't penetrate through the block unless they were drilled out for some reason after leaving the factory.
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I believe the holes were used for an engine cradle during assembly line work. Some cars do use them for cooler line attachment points, so that would work fine. The holes shouldn't penetrate through the block unless they were drilled out for some reason after leaving the factory.
Awesome. That'll make life easier for mounting the lines. Thanks!
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Had a 428 once that had the alternator low on the passenger side. There was a brace that attached to the lower alt. bracket and one of the holes that you are talking about. Don't know what year or model it was originally used on but it kept the alt really stable
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Had a 428 once that had the alternator low on the passenger side. There was a brace that attached to the lower alt. bracket and one of the holes that you are talking about. Don't know what year or model it was originally used on but it kept the alt really stable
Thunderbird or other luxury, like a Merc. They had extra NVH bracing for the alternator and A/C.
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I asked the same question a couple months ago. Some suggested it was used as mounting for trans cooler lines. Not sure but that's what I used them for to support my remote cooler.
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=9647.msg108470#msg108470
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I asked the same question a couple months ago. Some suggested it was used as mounting for trans cooler lines. Not sure but that's what I used them for to support my remote cooler.
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=9647.msg108470#msg108470
There are vintage Ford pictures that show it being used as a cradle mount. I've seen several of them. Of course a Google search didn't come up with any, but they are out there.
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I believe the holes were used for an engine cradle during assembly line work. Some cars do use them for cooler line attachment points, so that would work fine. The holes shouldn't penetrate through the block unless they were drilled out for some reason after leaving the factory.
Our member, and Ford Employee, Rod C. has answered the question multiple times on the various FE Facebook pages - like Doug said, the bolt holes primary purpose is for the fixture that transports the engine around the assembly plant. Secondary purpose is any of the various brackets Ford sometimes uses on some vehicles. You can see the fixture in action on some of the old Ford assembly line videos that are on YouTube, and we’ve sometimes posted links to in the past.
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I believe the holes were used for an engine cradle during assembly line work. Some cars do use them for cooler line attachment points, so that would work fine. The holes shouldn't penetrate through the block unless they were drilled out for some reason after leaving the factory.
Our member, and Ford Employee, Rod C. has answered the question multiple times on the various FE Facebook pages - like Doug said, the bolt holes primary purpose is for the fixture that transports the engine around the assembly plant. Secondary purpose is any of the various brackets Ford sometimes uses on some vehicles. You can see the fixture in action on some of the old Ford assembly line videos that are on YouTube, and we’ve sometimes posted links to in the past.
Here’s a link to a good old Ford assembly line video, shows early FE camshafts (thrust button style) being cast, and the FE engine blocks being cast, machined, assembled and tested. By about the 2:50 mark the engine block is attached to the fixture for further transport around assembly.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e_aRxkRCXD0
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That is so cool to watch!
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I believe the holes were used for an engine cradle during assembly line work. Some cars do use them for cooler line attachment points, so that would work fine. The holes shouldn't penetrate through the block unless they were drilled out for some reason after leaving the factory.
Our member, and Ford Employee, Rod C. has answered the question multiple times on the various FE Facebook pages - like Doug said, the bolt holes primary purpose is for the fixture that transports the engine around the assembly plant. Secondary purpose is any of the various brackets Ford sometimes uses on some vehicles. You can see the fixture in action on some of the old Ford assembly line videos that are on YouTube, and we’ve sometimes posted links to in the past.
Here’s a link to a good old Ford assembly line video, shows early FE camshafts (thrust button style) being cast, and the FE engine blocks being cast, machined, assembled and tested. By about the 2:50 mark the engine block is attached to the fixture for further transport around assembly.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e_aRxkRCXD0
Oh, that was awesome! I've been in the automation industry for 16 years now, and I always find it impressive to see the older sequencer-based systems. Those multi-spindle machining centers, power and free, and chain-drive systems are actually very similar to how those processes are still done today. In fact, I've designed some of the systems for assembly and testing of various engines and components over the years.
I appreciate the info in the thread guys!
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Cool video for sure. I was reminded of an old saying I have. "Every car that rolls off the assembly line on its own power is a miracle." More applicable today with all the electronics etc... Complex assembly lines like these are truly an engineering marvel. Watching robot arms flip window glass or motors around like they're weightless is mesmerizing.
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What strikes me is the difference/care/love/fanaticism in the engine assembly today versus the slapping together of an engine in the plant. Awesome just to watch them slam pistons in.
Obviously we want more out of the engine but still.
Coincidentally this popped up just now in my wife’s Instagram dealy.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPZw49wV/712-E04-F9-0-E5-A-4-CD1-883-A-6667-B650883-E.jpg)
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What strikes me is the difference/care/love/fanaticism in the engine assembly today versus the slapping together of an engine in the plant. Awesome just to watch them slam pistons in.
Obviously we want more out of the engine but still.
Coincidentally this popped up just now in my wife’s Instagram dealy.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPZw49wV/712-E04-F9-0-E5-A-4-CD1-883-A-6667-B650883-E.jpg)
That's a lot of Ponies!
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What strikes me is the difference/care/love/fanaticism in the engine assembly today versus the slapping together of an engine in the plant. Awesome just to watch them slam pistons in.
Obviously we want more out of the engine but still.
Coincidentally this popped up just now in my wife’s Instagram dealy.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPZw49wV/712-E04-F9-0-E5-A-4-CD1-883-A-6667-B650883-E.jpg)
Haha, I saw that part of the video- the operator was launching a ring compressor on and whacking the piston in with a dead blow without even looking at it.
There is a lot more precision in today's automation systems for sure, but I sometimes have to wonder if it's all necessary. I've seen companies spend hundreds of thousands of dollars extra on systems, inspections, etc that really don't even seem all that necessary, just because a quality engineer said to do it. Is there logic behind it, absolutely. Could it be resolved if you could trust your operators more? Yes. I can automate anything you want, but it costs a lot of money to do so, and someone always ends up paying for it (the end consumer). I would not be surprised if ~10% of a vehicle's cost of production was the costs of operator hand-holding systems integrations. A "pick to light" system for a simple pre-painted front bumper bracket (light turns on, operator picks from that bin...) might cost upwards of $300k plus the controls system. Everyone makes profit along the way to the dealership, so it really adds up.
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Yes those engine fixtures are called "J Bars". The old 300-6 line at Cleveland used them when I was there, as did the 460 line at Lima. You could manually flip the engine over on the bar for different assembly operations.
Nowadays the material handling in an engine plant is far more sophisticated! You've got pallets that automated systems interact with to position the engine for each operation.
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Yes those engine fixtures are called "J Bars". The old 300-6 line at Cleveland used them when I was there, as did the 460 line at Lima. You could manually flip the engine over on the bar for different assembly operations.
Nowadays the material handling in an engine plant is far more sophisticated! You've got pallets that automated systems interact with to position the engine for each operation.
Those pallets aren't cheap either. Just the base before machining and tooling can run several thousand a pop depending on the size. The tooling is often "passive" meaning that external actuators interact with it at various stations. For instance, I designed a few that had ball-screw mechanisms to grip specific components during a transmission assembly process on a pallet. When it entered a processing station, the pallet was locked in place and a linear rotary servo actuator advanced, engaged with the coupler on the ball screw, and rotated it to release the assembly so a robot could enter and remove the planetary gear assembly from the pallet.
Almost everything is RFID tracked these days, and data can be stored for each pallet throughout. So, if something major fails and there is no chance of kicking it out on a repair spur, the pallet simply advances and doesn't get processed at other stations.
The saddest part of it all is when you're running off equipment. Many manufacturers require you to permanently damage debug and run-off parts so they can't be sold/distributed since it is often a liability (if it fails and causes injury, the company can be sued. Or it's a marketing nightmare if the design hasn't been released to the public yet). Of course, *sometimes* parts disappear and wind up as trophies or float around in the garage. We did a project for a certain extremely popular truck line that I can't name, and there were front bumpers and grilles around everywhere. One guy ran off with the top-trim grilles, stored them for two years, and sold them on Craigslist to people who had bought the base versions of the truck (no it was not me, and yes the guy got caught and fired). Another guy took a top-tier trim grille, added LED strips and made himself an impressive garage decoration out of it.
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Way-back-when, I spent time as a ten-digit robot on a ten station drilling and reaming operation. Between the machine and me, we made valve body components that became part of a C6 transmission. Working midnights, I could practically do it in my sleep. And I didn't even fall down once!
KS
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The saddest part of it all is when you're running off equipment. Many manufacturers require you to permanently damage debug and run-off parts so they can't be sold/distributed since it is often a liability (if it fails and causes injury, the company can be sued.
When I was in Ford Engineering, any competitor's car we did a test on had to be scrapped for that very reason. Ford cars had a bit more latitude. Still if you drilled one hole in the firewall for a thermocouple, that new Ford car was done. We bought a Ferrari Testarossa as a benchmark for the late 80's GN34 mid-engine sports car program. That car, and what happened to it, are the stuff of legend within Ford. Let's just say it involved a strip club and a trip through a chain link fence into a churchyard. Parts of that car ended up everywhere - badges on mechanics' toolboxes, desk art, you name it. :)
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Way-back-when, I spent time as a ten-digit robot on a ten station drilling and reaming operation. Between the machine and me, we made valve body components that became part of a C6 transmission. Working midnights, I could practically do it in my sleep. And I didn't even fall down once!
KS
Everyone thinks automation is the "big bad evil" for the economy, but the truth is those "ten-digit robots" you speak of are capable of tasks that automation can't always cost-effectively replace. Anything requiring manual dexterity or "feel" is usually difficult and/or expensive to automate.
I've designed a lot of those lean stations over the years, sort of miss doing those types of projects.
The saddest part of it all is when you're running off equipment. Many manufacturers require you to permanently damage debug and run-off parts so they can't be sold/distributed since it is often a liability (if it fails and causes injury, the company can be sued.
When I was in Ford Engineering, any competitor's car we did a test on had to be scrapped for that very reason. Ford cars had a bit more latitude. Still if you drilled one hole in the firewall for a thermocouple, that new Ford car was done. We bought a Ferrari Testarossa as a benchmark for the late 80's GN34 mid-engine sports car program. That car, and what happened to it, are the stuff of legend within Ford. Let's just say it involved a strip club and a trip through a chain link fence into a churchyard. Parts of that car ended up everywhere - badges on mechanics' toolboxes, desk art, you name it. :)
That's crazy! But you're right, most of the time "destroying" a product was just the fastest way to prevent function or indicate it is a known scrap. Some customers went a bit extreme and would have us cut product in half on a band-saw or shatter it. Others required every debug part to be counted and returned (firearms and energy production components). Sometimes food industry customers would let us keep whatever we were running off- sometimes it was enjoyable and others not so much. One happy employee managed to run off with a mostly assembled V8 engine from a $100k+ luxury/sport car. We were doing a single simple station addition and the customer sent us a pallet and engine to mock up and test the system. They never asked for the engine back, and it mysteriously disappeared after a month. Unfortunately that wasn't me either. I didn't usually get fun trophies but I did raid the metal dumpster at the end of a project to get as much random hardware and useable scrap metal that I could squirrel away without my wife getting upset.
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Speaking of odd parts left setting around at the end of a project, while a process engineer at T&C Livonia, I got tasked with walking a bunch of special gear blanks through the hobbing process. It turned out that they were a small part of the GT40 transaxle program.
When the GT40 went to the 427 engine, it was decided to create a transaxle to take the new load of torque the engine would be generating. Simply put, a case was designed to contain both the inside of a toploader and all that goes into a nine-inch differential. The gears themselves were a special batch with improved metallurgy.
We built more of them than were actually needed in the racing activity, and for several years thereafter they set on shelves in a storage area across the aisle, but not far from the door into the QC lab and process section. I used to walk past several times every day, glance up and shake my head at the dreams...
One day I noticed they were gone, and soon thereafter I chanced to be talking to the Plant Executive Engineer, Bruno Z. I asked him where they'd gone to and he told me he'd simply shipped them to H&M. I understand that a lot of stuff ended up there after the racing was only a memory.
Bruno started to walk away at the end of our discussion, and then he turned back and said, "You didn't want one did you? If I'd known I'd haven given it to you."
I don't know what I'd ever have done with it, but at the very least it'd make good garage art. I could have displayed it along with my early Cammer parts with the spark plug holes centered in the combustion chamber---and entering from the lower edge of the cam covers. That was theoretically the right place, but testing showed that the way it was soon-after done, off center in the combustion chamber and coming in from the upper area of the cam covers produced an extra hundred horsepower. So they were only good to look at.
It's possible to make enough torque, with what we know now, that that transaxle would simply shed all its teeth as the clutch grabbed. But...
KS
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Speaking of odd parts left setting around at the end of a project, while a process engineer at T&C Livonia, I got tasked with walking a bunch of special gear blanks through the hobbing process. It turned out that they were a small part of the GT40 transaxle program.
When the GT40 went to the 427 engine, it was decided to create a transaxle to take the new load of torque the engine would be generating. Simply put, a case was designed to contain both the inside of a toploader and all that goes into a nine-inch differential. The gears themselves were a special batch with improved metallurgy.
We built more of them than were actually needed in the racing activity, and for several years thereafter they set on shelves in a storage area across the aisle, but not far from the door into the QC lab and process section. I used to walk past several times every day, glance up and shake my head at the dreams...
One day I noticed they were gone, and soon thereafter I chanced to be talking to the Plant Executive Engineer, Bruno Z. I asked him where they'd gone to and he told me he'd simply shipped them to H&M. I understand that a lot of stuff ended up there after the racing was only a memory.
Bruno started to walk away at the end of our discussion, and then he turned back and said, "You didn't want one did you? If I'd known I'd haven given it to you."
I don't know what I'd ever have done with it, but at the very least it'd make good garage art. I could have displayed it along with my early Cammer parts with the spark plug holes centered in the combustion chamber---and entering from the lower edge of the cam covers. That was theoretically the right place, but testing showed that the way it was soon-after done, off center in the combustion chamber and coming in from the upper area of the cam covers produced an extra hundred horsepower. So they were only good to look at.
It's possible to make enough torque, with what we know now, that that transaxle would simply shed all its teeth as the clutch grabbed. But...
KS
A few colleagues of mine worked on a system for a certain supercharger company. I was waiting for one of them to say "yeah, we have a few left over from runoff" but I doubt it'll happen. What's funny is that product in the $500-$10,000 range usually gets tracked and returned, but there were two projects I worked on where the product was $20,000-$80,000 and the customer literally said "cut it in half with a torch and chuck it in a dumpster." One was a jet propulsion component. Aside from being a massive paperweight, it was useless unless you had the other millions of dollars of equipment to utilize it.
The only trophies I have are little rinky-dink desk ornaments and things I can put in shadow boxes and hang on the walls as depressing souvenirs/reminders from a thankless career ;D
The project leftovers that hit the dumpsters are really where the perks are at. I nabbed (with permission) enough scrap to furnish our garage with several heavy-duty workbenches, polished trim around all 3 bays, and general framework to mount utilities, shelves, etc. I have around 1000lbs of aluminum framework scrap that I keep in our crawlspace for when I eventually put in a large outbuilding in the back yard and need to build racking and various contraptions.
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Do you want to hear the parallel universe version of "scrap"? Sure you do.
My time was with the military. There are rules about who owns the trash, scrap...everything, and what you can't do. Rules in the military are laws with the added benefit of you not just being fired for breaking the rules, but also being jailed.
There is no such thing as something you can fish out of the dumpster and call it yours. It is always the property of the military. Now, you might not get punished for fishing out a snot rag, but if it's a piece of scrap metal, an old cabinet or whatever, you stand a good chance of being in trouble if you try to make it yours. Aircraft maintenance facilities go through a lot of sheet metal and billet material. They have a scrap bin and that is picked up by a recycler for which the military is paid. So, if there's a tiny corner of 2024 aluminum sheet and you take it out of the bin, you are breaking the law. Yes, people do get punished for this. It's pretty common. It seems so trivial, but if you allow a little bit of it, then you open it for anything. So that's why the military can be brutal when it comes to what's theirs.
I knew of one guy who was having a car problem. He went to the workshop and borrowed a screwdriver to fix the problem and returned it. He received a reprimand for using government property for personal use.
At the same time, there are examples of people stealing brand new expensive crap out of supply. A lot of times, they don't get caught. It just depends.
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Do you want to hear the parallel universe version of "scrap"? Sure you do.
My time was with the military. There are rules about who owns the trash, scrap...everything, and what you can't do. Rules in the military are laws with the added benefit of you not just being fired for breaking the rules, but also being jailed.
There is no such thing as something you can fish out of the dumpster and call it yours. It is always the property of the military. Now, you might not get punished for fishing out a snot rag, but if it's a piece of scrap metal, an old cabinet or whatever, you stand a good chance of being in trouble if you try to make it yours. Aircraft maintenance facilities go through a lot of sheet metal and billet material. They have a scrap bin and that is picked up by a recycler for which the military is paid. So, if there's a tiny corner of 2024 aluminum sheet and you take it out of the bin, you are breaking the law. Yes, people do get punished for this. It's pretty common. It seems so trivial, but if you allow a little bit of it, then you open it for anything. So that's why the military can be brutal when it comes to what's theirs.
I knew of one guy who was having a car problem. He went to the workshop and borrowed a screwdriver to fix the problem and returned it. He received a reprimand for using government property for personal use.
At the same time, there are examples of people stealing brand new expensive crap out of supply. A lot of times, they don't get caught. It just depends.
I work at a maintenance depot for the military and we literally throw away bolts, washers and nuts by the thousands when we are cleaning up from one project and moving to another. All grade 8 in almost every size imaginable. Is so much waste. But as far as taking anything from here, the only thing they allow to be taken is wood from crates, broken pallets and mock up fixtures. They caught a guy going out the back gate with a bunch of wood and asked to see his wood permit and while the MP was looking it over he noticed a bunch of rusty nails the man had pulled from the scrap bin and had in a bucket. He was required to empty his trailer and lost his security clearance in the next month or so. They have zero tolerance for taking anything from this place even though they are just throwing it away.
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Do you want to hear the parallel universe version of "scrap"? Sure you do.
My time was with the military. There are rules about who owns the trash, scrap...everything, and what you can't do. Rules in the military are laws with the added benefit of you not just being fired for breaking the rules, but also being jailed.
There is no such thing as something you can fish out of the dumpster and call it yours. It is always the property of the military. Now, you might not get punished for fishing out a snot rag, but if it's a piece of scrap metal, an old cabinet or whatever, you stand a good chance of being in trouble if you try to make it yours. Aircraft maintenance facilities go through a lot of sheet metal and billet material. They have a scrap bin and that is picked up by a recycler for which the military is paid. So, if there's a tiny corner of 2024 aluminum sheet and you take it out of the bin, you are breaking the law. Yes, people do get punished for this. It's pretty common. It seems so trivial, but if you allow a little bit of it, then you open it for anything. So that's why the military can be brutal when it comes to what's theirs.
I knew of one guy who was having a car problem. He went to the workshop and borrowed a screwdriver to fix the problem and returned it. He received a reprimand for using government property for personal use.
At the same time, there are examples of people stealing brand new expensive crap out of supply. A lot of times, they don't get caught. It just depends.
And yet it happens regularly....
I've seen plenty of stuff from the military, up to and including a full size air to air missile. Of course it didn't have any guts, but it was complete with insignias and all other hardware. I always wanted that thing...bad, but he wouldn't part with it.
People would be surprised at what actually comes up missing from the military. You just aren't going to read about it on a govt. website. Or about the multitudes of warehouses and storage facilities with minimal security.
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Bruno gave me a toploader to replace my almost-new T-10 after the output shaft twisted off. I'd only taken delivery on the car a couple of months earlier. I gave back the T-10 and it went to the warranty crib to find out why it failed.
On the other hand, they caught a guy trying to get out the gate for the rail spur. He had a toploader under each arm. He didn't run fast enough and was fired and turned over to 'the man'. ::)
KS
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Do you want to hear the parallel universe version of "scrap"? Sure you do.
My time was with the military. There are rules about who owns the trash, scrap...everything, and what you can't do. Rules in the military are laws with the added benefit of you not just being fired for breaking the rules, but also being jailed.
There is no such thing as something you can fish out of the dumpster and call it yours. It is always the property of the military. Now, you might not get punished for fishing out a snot rag, but if it's a piece of scrap metal, an old cabinet or whatever, you stand a good chance of being in trouble if you try to make it yours. Aircraft maintenance facilities go through a lot of sheet metal and billet material. They have a scrap bin and that is picked up by a recycler for which the military is paid. So, if there's a tiny corner of 2024 aluminum sheet and you take it out of the bin, you are breaking the law. Yes, people do get punished for this. It's pretty common. It seems so trivial, but if you allow a little bit of it, then you open it for anything. So that's why the military can be brutal when it comes to what's theirs.
I knew of one guy who was having a car problem. He went to the workshop and borrowed a screwdriver to fix the problem and returned it. He received a reprimand for using government property for personal use.
At the same time, there are examples of people stealing brand new expensive crap out of supply. A lot of times, they don't get caught. It just depends.
I actually have heard that from several people who worked on government/military projects. A worked for a company that went through a lot of pure silver wire, and it was a byproduct of one specific process. The silver would be removed from the product and recycled for the next batch, so there was little to no waste. Apparently one of the employees that I knew had been squirreling away pocketfuls of the stuff every day for 6 or 7 years and had amassed a small fortune worth of pure silver that he planned to melt down into bars. Since he always took roughly the same amount, nobody ever really noticed because the recycled numbers were mostly consistent each month. He eventually got caught and was arrested.