FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: blykins on March 06, 2021, 01:07:07 PM
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Let me begin by saying that this engine sounds so good. I'd like to just sit and listen to it idling. Even with the idle set at 1500 rpm, it has a really radical sound to it.
Let me continue by saying that I didn't make any head way on horsepower.
If you remember the last time, we ended up at 42° total timing to make 433 hp @ 6800 and 405 lb-ft of torque. We got the engine running and I set the timing at 36° this time, just so I could sneak up on the power like I did last time.
The first pull was a 5500 rpm blast to just check the A/F ratios, oil pressure, etc.
Second pull was to 7000 and we were rewarded with......435 hp and 400 lb-ft of torque.
So I thought, well, we are already doing good, because we are making what we did last time with only 36° of timing. So I bumped the timing up to 42° and made another pull. Exactly the same horsepower.
I'm scratching my head at this point because the only changes to the engine were a little deeper oil pan, and ported heads. In my mind we should be making some steam, so I pulled a spark plug to check things out. Once again, I saw a green tint on the tip.
This happened to me last time. I started with an Autolite 45 plug because it's at around 10.3:1 compression and the cam is pretty big. I got the green tint last time, so I ran and bought some Autolite 124's and the engine immediately responded and picked up horsepower and the tip stayed white.
Not sure why we are dealing with this again, but I had to cut the dyno session way short. I have AR32's and AR33's here at the shop, but it never dawned on me to take them with me.
So, that's where I am. I left JJ at the dyno and in the next couple weeks I'll take some more plugs and go try again.
I will say that the ported heads raised the peak hp rpm to 7200. At least I was able to see some change from the last time it was dyno'd.
I'll try and post a video of it idling. Didn't get any pulls on film.
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At what rpm was the 400 lb-ft at?
It looks to me that your at higher rpm but, with less torque.
If your at 7.2k and 433 hp, your down 16 lb-ft on torque.
What's the torque now, @ 6.8k?
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At what rpm was the 400 lb-ft at?
It looks to me that your at higher rpm but, with less torque.
If your at 7.2k and 433 hp, your down 16 lb-ft on torque.
What's the torque now, @ 6.8k?
The "400 lb-ft" was just a general statement, meaning that it didn't pick much up over the 405.
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Did you try the timing at 38*,40*,41* before going to 42*? That would be the first engine I have ported the heads for in 49 years that did not increase in horsepower. WOT working properly? Joe-JDC
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Joe, it's not the heads.
I need to get another plug in it.
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I just wanted to follow my last post up with another and say that *in no means* was I blaming this on Joe or his head work.
My intent was to just give an update and to post up on the spark plug issue.
When I changed from a 45 to a 124 last time, the issue went away, but now it's came back and I'm left scratching my bald head. I will all but guarantee that it will pick up 25-30 hp the instant I change plugs again, but I don't have a tangible reason why I have to change plugs. This is a 10.25:1 engine and the DCR is coming out to be in the mid 7's I think. We were dyno'ing on 110 race gas.
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I had "green" spark plugs in a couple of engines, at a point about 9 years ago. It wasn't near St. Patty's day so I took a couple to my engineer, an older gent with lots of metallurgy experience. He looked them over, said he believed it was "nickle" content in the center or side electrode. His advice was " try a colder plug". Which I did, it was a colder heat range than what we normally ran.
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Too add , to my comments, I do remember this gent ( our version of William Conley ) looked closely at the center electrode and said that he saw some signs of corrosion. I never really did pinpoint the problem, I did suspect the batch of fuel. But, the step colder plug solved the problem, and I continued with the test.
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A green plug certainly indicates that it's too hot.
The issue is that I didn't bring any other plugs with me.
The other issue is that I can't figure out why it turned green this time. Nothing changed except head flow and the 124's were sufficient last time.
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Hello Brent,
Experimentation is fun indeed. Cool build and testing. You are a lucky man to be able to build these test engines and find out what they are capable of. Thank you for letting us see these builds!
The colder plug certainly may help - what was the afr during the test?
Could the intake be a restriction to the increased flow cylinder heads?
Not sure if the manifold was flowed with the cylinder head after porting or not.
Anyhow - fun times ahead. 7000 rpm FE is music!
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Hello Brent,
Experimentation is fun indeed. Cool build and testing. You are a lucky man to be able to build these test engines and find out what they are capable of. Thank you for letting us see these builds!
The colder plug certainly may help - what was the afr during the test?
Could the intake be a restriction to the increased flow cylinder heads?
Not sure if the manifold was flowed with the cylinder head after porting or not.
Anyhow - fun times ahead. 7000 rpm FE is music!
A/F was 12.5-13.
The intake was flowed by Joe when he ported it. It's capable of the task.
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You can hear it idle on the tail end of this video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uQbvapfDalo
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Perfect idle. Sounds “frisky”
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The green tipped plugs ya know I have seen this before and I had no idea that meant it was a hot plug. Does it also mean that it’s lean.
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The green tipped plugs ya know I have seen this before and I had no idea that meant it was a hot plug. Does it also mean that it’s lean.
It can be lean at the same time but a green tinge doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily lean. In my case the A/F was right where I wanted it.
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I suspect that it is just getting ready for St. Paddy's day. probably looking for a little alcohol.
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Hey Brent sounds awesome ! Question what are the valve springs open and closed LBS ?
Thanks
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280/680.
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Thanks Brent pretty strong
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Sounds fantastic Brent.
Got enough carb?
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I used the 830 Holley dyno carb. That carb has been there for years because it makes more horsepower than anything else you bolt on. It's a Scott Perkins special that is a bad chick.
Bottom line is the plug got hot, hot enough to turn it green and glaze it over. I just don't know *why* it got hot with nothing but a head flow change.
The engine will pick up a good bit of power when I get back down there and throw some AR33s in.
I've got a couple tricks up my sleeve if I need to sneak a few more hp out of it while I'm down there.
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This is weird,the easy answer is the higher flow heads leaned it out a little and demanded a colder plug, but the power numbers and A/F numbers don't support that. Did you try backing the timing a couple of degrees from the 42* to see if it made any difference?Was there any work done to the combustion chambers that may have increased the burn rate,kind of made it closer to a fast burn chamber?
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ith a better chamber and flow maybe it wants less timing like 427John said and maybe go up a jet size to try. That along with the colder plug who knows. I wanted to try going up 2 jet sizes to get into the 10s at the reunion. If I have my heads hand ported which Im thinking about Ime going 3 instead to start.
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Sounds great Brent! That would be a blast in a little Cobra.
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Gonna head back down to the dyno this weekend and get it sorted out, then I'll be putting JJ up for sale, or parting him out if no one is interested. Got my eyes set on another build.
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Ok, we ended up with 465 hp @ 7200 this morning, turning the water pump. 410 lb-ft of torque.
It still liked 42° timing and I just went ahead and put AR32 plugs in it. Could probably have used the AR33's, but these worked. 38° total dropped 15 hp. A 2" Super Sucker opposed to the 1" Super Sucker also dropped 15 hp. Interesting.
Little engine still sounds marvelous just sitting there idling. Pulled hard to 7500.
Debating on keeping it and trying other things. It's earned a soft spot in my heart, we have beat on it hard.
Video to come in a bit.
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No other changes, just the AR32 plugs?
How low would it pull?
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No other changes, just the AR32 plugs?
How low would it pull?
On a higher strung engine, pulling it hard at low rpm is not one of my goals. Everyone knows that a 352 that's peaking at 7200 rpm is not going to have any guts down low, so there's no use in stressing the engine.
A 4.30-4.56 gear would be this engine's friend.
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The only reason I ask, is that you were talking about putting in a street car. Drag only, it wouldn't be a issue but, on the street, it would be nice to know what rpm you could use w/o it bucking.
So then, you only changed plugs and it picked up over 30 hp?
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The only reason I ask, is that you were talking about putting in a street car. Drag only, it wouldn't be a issue but, on the street, it would be nice to know what rpm you could use w/o it bucking.
So then, you only changed plugs and it picked up over 30 hp?
I wouldn't run it down the street with it lugged under 2000 rpm, but it should do fine in a street car. My definition of street is a little different than some others' LOL
Yes, the previous plugs were just too hot. I was pretty confident that it would pick up with a spark plug change. We basically gained 32 hp from the first iteration to the second iteration. It also peaked the horsepower 400 rpm higher, which is a logical change going from a lower flowing head to a higher flowing head. It makes it easier for the camshaft to do its job.
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That is getting serious for a 352 FE. Some long rods, and short pistons, and a tunnel ram would get you the 500 hp you were looking for. Is there another intake manifold you would like to try on it? Do you still have the Streetmaster? A Streetmaster of Holley Street Dominator with Super Sucker would be interesting as well as a ported RPM. Glad you found some more horsepower! Joe-JDC
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I'm gonna try another intake next. Not sure what.
May end up buying an intake adapter and trying something like a 351C Strip Dominator or something along those lines. I think it would pick up some horsepower with another intake manifold.
Pistons would be another iteration down the road as it would require rebalancing the crankshaft.
Here's a video link:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CMXY1ctnb56/
Yes, I know we have a header gasket leak....
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Sounds fantastic. Looks great too.
Are you now thinking the intake might be holding it back some?
I thought that earlier. Only experimentation will tell one way or another.
Experimentation does not always agree with theory - at least that is what I have learned in the scientific/electrical engineering field.
I suspect this is true in engine building as well.
Thank you for the updates!!
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Thanks, Perry.
I think I'm gonna try another intake. I think the PI could be holding it back, but I could be wrong.
I love the look of the engine though.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51029278336_5afde8eebf_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50980192668_d71bd72a56_z.jpg)
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The only reason I ask, is that you were talking about putting in a street car. Drag only, it wouldn't be a issue but, on the street, it would be nice to know what rpm you could use w/o it bucking.
So then, you only changed plugs and it picked up over 30 hp?
A high strung engine doesn't necessarily mean no street duty,it just means its not really going to like being in a really heavy car and is going to want pretty low gears,so if your willing to accommodate that street away.I've been in plenty of rigs on the street that had a high choppy idle and were soft on the bottom,while not ideal they were their own kind of fun.
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Brent, your engine is very similar to Ted Wells. His was .050 over so, a 361.
Of course he had no "modern" ring pack but, his valves where similar at 2.09 x 1.6. He used a Crower roller cam, but, even though he said it was 320 duration, it only peaked about 7k. I don't know any other cam spec for it. He worked for Valley Head Service, one of the best head porters of that time ('70's) so, he had very good flowing heads, I'm sure. And he did some very different block mods, than are done today.
He would drop the hammer, at 8k to 8.3k, short shift (6-6.5k) 1 & 2, 7k to 3rd and 7.1k threw the traps, with 5.14 gears and 11.00 x 15 M&H's. His best time was 11.18 @ 121.46. Later went to a 396 (427 x 3.5 crank), I don't know if he kept the same heads but, it would make sense, if he did. He did 10.7 with that engine but, I don't remember the mph.
Here is this intake.
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Wow! 30 hp with a plug change? That is huge. Does that indicate the too-hot plugs were causing pre-ignition? I can't imagine just the heat range being off a bit would cause that big of a gain/loss unless something else was happening.
It is a gorgeous engine and is making great hp.
pl
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I’m sure in the Dyno it would be hard to hear pre ignition unless it was really banging away. It’s funny I wonder how many people say I nead a bit to hit 10s let me change to a colder plug. Curious as to what gap you run and do you play around with that also.
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Wow! 30 hp with a plug change? That is huge. Does that indicate the too-hot plugs were causing pre-ignition? I can't imagine just the heat range being off a bit would cause that big of a gain/loss unless something else was happening.
It is a gorgeous engine and is making great hp.
pl
No preignition, just glazed over insulators that didn’t want to do their jobs anymore.
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I’m sure in the Dyno it would be hard to hear pre ignition unless it was really banging away. It’s funny I wonder how many people say I nead a bit to hit 10s let me change to a colder plug. Curious as to what gap you run and do you play around with that also.
A colder plug in and of itself does not make horsepower. These plugs were hot enough that they had turned green and glazed over. They were not doing their jobs anymore.
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Brent, looks like JJ caught a different pan this go ‘round. Also I see the breathers have nipples. Was that engine’s oil being vacuumed or?
Nice work, thanks for posting.
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Wow! 30 hp with a plug change? That is huge. Does that indicate the too-hot plugs were causing pre-ignition? I can't imagine just the heat range being off a bit would cause that big of a gain/loss unless something else was happening.
It is a gorgeous engine and is making great hp.
pl
No preignition, just glazed over insulators that didn’t want to do their jobs anymore.
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks!
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I know of a couple of Stock Eliminator engines that made in excess of 560 hp with very similar ported PI-F intakes on larger engines. I have several intakes you can use for a test if you wanted to try something different. Shipping is all it would cost you. Joe-JDC
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I know of a couple of Stock Eliminator engines that made in excess of 560 hp with very similar ported PI-F intakes on larger engines. I have several intakes you can use for a test if you wanted to try something different. Shipping is all it would cost you. Joe-JDC
I hate using other people's intakes for testing, I'm always afraid something will happen during shipping, getting them crudded up with gasket material, etc. I appreciate the offer though, Joe.
I agree that the intake should support the horsepower, but just like your Tunnel Ram comment, I think something else may net us some ponies.
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I know of a couple of Stock Eliminator engines that made in excess of 560 hp with very similar ported PI-F intakes on larger engines. Joe-JDC
Stock eliminator engines can’t used ported intakes or heads
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I know of a couple of Stock Eliminator engines that made in excess of 560 hp with very similar ported PI-F intakes on larger engines. Joe-JDC
Stock eliminator engines can’t used ported intakes or heads
Don't tell anyone, but they all are ported to one extent or another. I know, since I ported probably a dozen or so of them over the years for folks. Not only FE, but other brands as well. Joe-JDC
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I know of a couple of Stock Eliminator engines that made in excess of 560 hp with very similar ported PI-F intakes on larger engines. Joe-JDC
Stock eliminator engines can’t used ported intakes or heads
Not supposed to, but they do, and they don't even try to hide it anymore.