FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 410bruce on January 24, 2021, 09:51:24 AM
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Okay, right off the bat from strictly a performance standpoint, the TFS wins hands down. I know that.
However, in my particular case, I already have the heads and CJ intake manifold. The intake is in nice shape, just needs a good cleaning and some paint. The heads on the other hand, are in bad shape. One has been dropped and has cracks needing repair on one end at the valve cover mating surface, nowhere near the ports, valves or chambers. The other head was damaged at about the same point and has already been repaired.
I'm sure they'll need guides and hardened exhaust seats. Will need to buy valves, springs, retainers and keepers.
The part numbers on both heads are illegible on one and nearly so on the other. They are worth zero to anyone looking for restoration parts.
If I can get them repaired and ready to go for a grand or so, I think it would be worth it. Maybe even send them out to Joe Crane (if he would even be interested) for some port clean up.
The engine is a 434 inch 428 pump gas street engine with Auto Tec pistons from Brent designed with the TFS heads in mind for a compression ratio of 10-10.5:1 if I remember correctly.
It's going in my '67 Cougar with a Toploader 4-speed.
I'd really like 500 horsepower, which according to Brent is no problem with the TFS heads and Performer RPM intake along with the pretty mild custom cam I already have from him.
I realize I'll not get that with the factory iron stuff but I'd sure like to get as close as possible with it.
The reason I'm throwing this out there is, I already have the CJ parts and would not have to spend the extra cash (maybe between 2500-3000?) for the TFS heads, Performer RPM and rocker stands/assembly for the heads.
If I don't use the Cobra Jet stuff on this build, they'll probably never get used. And, as someone mentioned on my other thread, I could always swap heads and intake later.
Given the factoids presented above, if you were in my position, what would you do?
As always, thank you for any input and/or advise, guys. 8)
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Right off the bat :) let me tell you what I got in my CJ heads. $1200 so far. They had to repair them as yours need. Left the original valves in.
With what you want you may have more in them. Also installing hardened seats may be a no no depending on your machinist. I have read of some that will do it but many won’t. There’s no material behind the seats to support the work. Is it possible? Yes but .....
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Right off the bat :) let me tell you what I got in my CJ heads. $1200 so far. They had to repair them as yours need. Left the original valves in.
With what you want you may have more in them. Also installing hardened seats may be a no no depending on your machinist. I have read of some that will do it but many won’t. There’s no material behind the seats to support the work. Is it possible? Yes but .....
Thanks Marc. My machinest does have experience installing seats in FE heads.
I think one of the heads already has exhaust seats installed. I guess I should have him look at that head and see if they were installed correctly or not. I may be done before I begin. :-[
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There is a bunch to consider. For me it’s just the love of anything Ford that I want to build a CJish motor. From a practical and hp desiring standpoint it may be better to go modern head. It depends on your outlook and goals.
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I'm kind of the same in that I really dig an engine that runs hard with as many factory parts as possible.
That 428 that BarryR built with all factory iron (including CJ exhaust manifolds) making 450 HP is cool as heck. 8)
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With CJ heads that have been converted to modern 11/32" stem 2.09/1.65 valves, CJ intake, on 433 cubes, with a high 220's .050" duration on the camshaft, you will see about 425-430 hp here, with about 460 lb-ft of torque.
If you want more than that, you'd have to go with more camshaft, or more compression, or have the heads ported.
I understand the appeal of making horsepower with factory parts, hence my 352 project, but it takes a lot more effort and money to do it that way.
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Thanks Brent. I figured on getting a more aggressive cam from you if I were to go the all-iron route.
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I understand the appeal of making horsepower with factory parts, hence my 352 project, but it takes a lot more effort and money to do it that way.
That all depends on how you look and approach something. Everybody wants to focus on a hp number, and I get that, but I think it's very misleading for people to make that a goal. It's fine for people wanting to run a number on the track, but kind of pointless for a street car.
To me, it comes down to 2 questions. What is it that you want for your car, and is money an issue?
If it's a money issue, go with what is your cheapest route, then live with it. I can pretty much assure you that you won't miss that 'extra' 20hp on the street. I'm also pretty sure that, with iron heads, you'll enjoy the car just as much as if it had a killer set of modern aluminum heads.
If money isn't the issue, then a modern aluminum head is the better choice, for lots of reasons.
If it's a nostalgia thing, and you like being "old school", then go the iron route and have fun. Forget what the numbers say. That's only for bragging rights anyway.
My stock stroke, non-ported, iron headed 427 is about as much fun as a person should be allowed to have. I've had a blast driving it thousands of miles during Drag Week and racing it at the Reunion, not to mention just general street miles. If I ask myself "would I have more fun if it made 20 more horsepower?" The answer would be absolutely not, the car is a blast to drive just the way it is. Would it go a tenth or two faster in the 1/4? Probably so. Would I notice it? No. I purposely wanted the engine to be all iron, and as 'factory' as possible, outside of the cam. At the track, it runs mid 11's @ 117. It's enough fun to put a smile on anybodies face. 20+ more horsepower isn't going to change that, and on the street, that extra horsepower is pretty much useless.
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In a '67 Cougar, a FE was available, so that would be a much better engine for resale, show, and parts replacement. However, I disagree with using the stock CJ heads and intake, because they are so heavy on the front end. You will need new springs, shocks, sway bar, radiator, and probably cooling fan, shroud. The TFS heads, and a C6-H, C6-F, C7-F, or RPM, and a gasket matched would remove upwards of 100-110# off the front end, and bring new parts to the build for power and longevity. The heads and intake can be painted to look stock if that is what you want. I remove the Edelbrock Logo on many RPM manifolds for folks, and when painted, they are difficult to tell from a stock Ford intake. It is a win, win. Joe-JDC
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I agree with Joe, 100% on this.
Personally, I would never use a iron manifold on a FE. You loose to much weight using aluminum to consider it, about 55 lb. The RPM Perfomer, is one of the best and cheapest manifold you can get for mid level HP!
Your build is similar to mine, I want to use the original '58 heads but, just my (390 HP) manifold and aluminum WP save me 75 lb and if I went with aluminum heads, I think I would do the Edelbrocks @ about $1500 a pair, for a mid level street engine. Mine will be a 419, daily driver, in a '54 Ford, 226 cam. I don't care about the HP it has, just that it isn't to heavy and has good manors. Your very limited with street tires, anyway.
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I guess it all depends on what you want. My .030" over 428 and 427/454 FE both made well over 500 HP with bore stock 428 CJ iron heads, right down to the original 3/8" stem 2.09"-1.66" valves and no porting, with a flat tappet cam and a single 780 Holley vac secondary on a Ford Sidewinder intake. The cam would be kinda snotty for a street car and mild gearing, and if an automatic, a loose convertor would be needed. I am sure a set of aftermarket heads or some porting and better induction would have made quite a bit more power, and put my Fairmont into the 9 second ET range deeper and easier, but I wanted to do it with all that factory "crap". Something satisfying about people looking under the hood, and seeing nothing but factory Ford stuff, block,heads,intake, distributor, valve covers, etc, when they have twice as much $$$ tied up in aftermarket stuff and running slower.
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Excellent input and advice, guys. 8)
Rory, that's where I'm at too. I LOVE factory iron that runs hard and surprises people when they see what you have.
However, I do agree in this instance with the Cougar, that taking as much weight off the front end as possible would probably be the best course of action--even it there were no power advantage.
The Edelbrocks. They seem to have fallen out of favor--why is that? Is it just because there are better heads available now?
I remember when they came out and was like "Wow! Affordable aluminum heads for an FE! Sweet!" :)
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At some point you need to make a decision, make a plan and stick to it. I tend to fall in the same trap as you something comes along looks like a good deal and everything takes a turn and the pile of parts grows. A few comments and I am just trying to help so please don't take it the wrong way:
Block - I saw your 428 block when you had it up on CL. Now not saying it is not a 428 casting, but it sure looked like an 390 casting that someone overbored to 428 and put a sleeve in. From memory (since you took it down) it looked like early 70's DIF casting, the deck is the 390 style and no scratch mark on the rear (which some later ones did not have). I assume you had it sonic checked, if not you need to as it may not be a good block. Not looking to argue, just what I see and have seen a lot of "428 service blocks" that were 390 casting and scary thin.
CJ heads - Even in the condition they are in someone will pay something for them. Sell them off. Any low riser casting with the CJ valve size can do the same powerwise, just a matter of the exhaust bolt pattern. With headers can use the vertical pattern and cut the shock towers back, otherwise find a set of C6AE-R heads. I would not recommend starting with a head that has been damaged like your CJ. Is better start with good castings. That all said to get them all done up is not hard to have $1,000 or more in them and frankly it is a bad investment.
If you decide to stick with an FE, if your 428 block passes a sonic test I'd build that, save up my money and do the TFS head and be done with it.
If the 428 block is not good, find a good std bore 390 block and build that. Better to keep the over bore to a minimum and have a thicker cylinder wall. Even a 390 with TFS heads can make 500 hp and be streetable. You can also use the 428 crank which get you around 416ci.
Finally, keep in mind a FE will add to the value of the car. My advice be need to make a plan, use good parts, stay away from parts that need a lot of work or are questionable and stay the course. Hope this helps, Steve
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Excellent input and advice, guys. 8)
Rory, that's where I'm at too. I LOVE factory iron that runs hard and surprises people when they see what you have.
However, I do agree in this instance with the Cougar, that taking as much weight off the front end as possible would probably be the best course of action--even it there were no power advantage.
The Edelbrocks. They seem to have fallen out of favor--why is that? Is it just because there are better heads available now?
I remember when they came out and was like "Wow! Affordable aluminum heads for an FE! Sweet!" :)
The eddys are dated. When they came out they were not much more than a copy of the CJ head. They also were for a long time the only aftermarket head available at a decent price, good availability, and decent quality. It is a good head and ported can make some power, but stock are not much more than your CJ heads.
Guys here including me are going to the TFS heads because of the bang for the buck. As for beating everyone up with old factory parts are alot of guys were happy to get rid of all that old stuff too. If you want to prove a point or have a class restriction then use the old factory stuff, but in the end you will leave something on the table and more likely to have headaches with 50 year old castings that fail on you.
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Since your budget seems to be limited, my point on the Edelbrock heads, is that you get more HP than CJ's and another weight reduction. Weight = HP, no matter where you save it but, especially in the front and in the future, you could always send them to Blair and get that extra, TF level HP. If I didn't want to use these '58 heads, that would have been my choice.
I will be a happy disposal site for all those homeless, used Edelbrocks. I'd even pay the shipping :)
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I like the idea of using iron too. If it’s in the budget, I’d keep the CJ heads and have Craft CNC them.
They have some pretty good programs for iron heads. I think cost is $600ish
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TFS is a good head but on a street car is overkill unless you run cal tracks and slicks. Eddy is still a good stock replacement head for a cj its lighter you should find used ones at a good price now. 600 hp is nice to talk about if your car will handle it set the car up first then if you think you need more h/p go for it.
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I have done two almost identical 461s, one with trick flows and one with craft ported iron heads. The iron is down approximately 40 hp. In fact the TF had 2 degrees less intake lobe
If you do go with craft ported heads, make sure you talk to him about chamber size because they end up at about 84 cc if you go to the full Monte. He can port them without doing the chamber as well but you lose a little benefit
There are some advertised figures out there but craft heads have been showing to be about 295 CFM. FYI I have used two sets absolutely nothing wrong with them but in a completely different league than trick flows.
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What do you feel the CJ heads are worth in their current condition? Not asking because I wish to buy them but to help you to think about a cost analysis. They are in hand and might be worth more to you to continue investing in them. You have lost some of the market ( as you have realized due to the illegible numbers). What I’m saying is you might be ahead(dollar wise) to keep and build the CJ heads as opposed to selling them. JMHO
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Timing is everything when buying or selling FE parts. Right now, the TFS heads are on BO until sometime in March from Summit. They are listed at $1919.00 for a pair that is CNC ready and flow upwards of 330 cfm. A pair of Edelbrock RPM heads are available at $1539.00, but only flow about 260 cfm, which would be about 70 hp down from the TFS on a typical 428 build. Rather than spend big money to repair cracked heads, do all the machine work, and that would take time, order the TFS heads now, and by the time you get ready to assemble the 428, the heads should be available, and you will be first in line by the Back Order. The price difference between the Edelbrock and TFS makes them a "no brainer" because of the flow advantage and horsepower potential. Remove any logos you don't want, paint them, and only a few people will be able to tell the difference when showing off your CJ valve covers. Joe-JDC
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I agree with earlier advice of making a plan and sticking to it,another thing to keep in mind is the car you are putting into,is the suspension set up to handle that kind of power and can it put 500hp to the ground.If this engine is going into a mostly stock street car, I can't honestly say I can tell the difference between a car with 400hp spinning its tires and a car with 500hp spinning its tires.
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I find it oddly amusing that apparently nobody had fun or ran hard in their cars when running old junk iron heads. Well, except for the guys who actually raced. ::)
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A question I've got about the aluminum heads,when you buy a set can you just take them out of the box install them on the engine and go?Is that the recommended norm,the reason I ask is that on some other forums guys recommend that the heads be checked before use especially offshore brands.Is this something that is brand dependent or should it be done for all?
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A question I've got about the aluminum heads,when you buy a set can you just take them out of the box install them on the engine and go?Is that the recommended norm,the reason I ask is that on some other forums guys recommend that the heads be checked before use especially offshore brands.Is this something that is brand dependent or should it be done for all?
The set of TFS heads I got look nice, nicer than TFS stuff from years ago as have not seen any in a long time. That said I will be disassembling and checking everything over before I use them. Seen too many times (not just TFS) where not all the machining crud is cleaned out, springs not set up right and guides too tight. In engine building good idea to check everything. All too often stuff is not right and requires massaging...
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I agree with earlier advice of making a plan and sticking to it,another thing to keep in mind is the car you are putting into,is the suspension set up to handle that kind of power and can it put 500hp to the ground.If this engine is going into a mostly stock street car, I can't honestly say I can tell the difference between a car with 400hp spinning its tires and a car with 500hp spinning its tires.
Is not hard to put power to the pavement these days. Are some pretty sticky tires out there and how make a car hook up has been figured out for a long time.
Regarding the TFS heads being overkill, keep in mind they have benefits other than just at full throttle. Small intake port should help drivability, efficient chamber help with detonation and give better combustion, and a head like that can make a goal with less cam duration which will make it more street friendly. So it is not just about HP.
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I went back and read your original post about the condition of your heads and I can tell you I wouldn't mess with them. You are going to
have a bunch of cash in them just to make them usable. I think the Trick Flows are the way to go hands down. JDC has already outlined the advantages along with some of the other guys so I won't labor the point. If they were HR or TP's I'd vote for fixing them.
The biggest thing will be every time you get behind the wheel or raise the hood you'll be wondering "what If"
My 2 cents for what it's worth
garyv
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I would get the TFS heads too , you'll appreciate the extra power at the stop light when needed 8)
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Don't forget there is a big difference in chamber size, even with a stock CJ versus a TFS
As far as the previous question, can you just bolt them on? Maybe. I have had 2 sets of TFS that I could have, and one I couldn't, (the no-go was an early set that were dirty), almost every Edelbrock I couldn't, seems like they use a random valve spring generator LOL
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I always find it funny that some people talk about how a new pair of aftermarket heads is "only a few hundred dollars more", but conveniently neglect any cost on getting the new heads checked out and any problems corrected before they are ready to bolt on the engine. What is the typical cost to have the TFS rocker mounting surfaces cut down .200" or so? I doubt the machine shop would be cutting al that up in one pass. The complete cost from out of the box to bolted on with whatever machining and parts are required should be addressed when doing a fair apples to apples comparison to a set of fully rebuilt iron heads.
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I always find it funny that some people talk about how a new pair of aftermarket heads is "only a few hundred dollars more", but conveniently neglect any cost on getting the new heads checked out and any problems corrected before they are ready to bolt on the engine. What is the typical cost to have the TFS rocker mounting surfaces cut down .200" or so? I doubt the machine shop would be cutting al that up in one pass. The complete cost from out of the box to bolted on with whatever machining and parts are required should be addressed when doing a fair apples to apples comparison to a set of fully rebuilt iron heads.
POP is making stands for the TFS heads. Don't need to mill anything.
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I have to give 67xr7cat a huge thank you for prompting me to sonic check the block. It appears you were right.
I did a quick check on the more important areas and came up with dismal readings. The thinnest I hit was .042 and a bunch between .050-.060.
So, won't be doing a 428 now! lol.
I may be back to 410bruce. Just rechecked some areas on the 410 block and am coming up with every reading so far between .139-.196.
Taking it down to the machine shop as soon as I get off of here. Will recheck after block is cleaned.
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Is the 410 block std now?If so or if already oversize and the .139 reading is the thinnest you may be able to get to 4.13 with some creative boring.
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I used a D3 or D2 block ( been 21 years)on my 410/416 and had plenty at .030 , still beating on it to this day
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I have one relatively inexpensive guy I use for quick machine work of iron FE heads, machine labor only, I put them together
Cores - for this coverage, call them free
Labor for shot blast, pressure test, bronze guides, valve job, cut for spring seats, cut deck and exhaust face - 478 (no seats)
Set of 11/32 SI CJ valves - 255
Set of valve guides - 115
Set of springs, cups and locks - 300
Set of Manley Viton seals - 38
That's 1186 for a pair stock unported head not counting a handful of shims. If you add 500 in porting, which is cheap, you are at 1686. All it takes is having to buy a set of CJ cores and you are above the TFS for less flow
I really like building stout iron head engines, but it's not a money saver unless you don't care about the light parts and more power
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Bruce sorry to hear the bad news on the 428 block. Glad you caught this sooner rather than later, like many have.
I am a factory iron fan, but mainly because I am putting my 427 and 428CJ cars back as they were. If I was building something "not correct" I would not spend money on damaged iron. If I had a nice set to work with may make it a tougher decision.
Additionally, with the news on your 428 block makes going with the TFS heads much easier, to get closer to your goal.
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Again, thank you all.
As much as I like running factory iron, I think going new aluminum is the correct way at this point--especially after Ross itemized the needed parts etc.
427John--I have a set of NOS .030 TRW forged pistons already for the 410. It would be neat to take it out to a standard 428 bore but at this point, I don't want to chance it. Plus, I think I'd rather have the thicker cylinder walls and a few less cubic inches.
Gregwill16--Thanks man. Yeah, it's kind of a kick in the Jimmy but like you say, better to find out now.
I'm just glad it didn't sell. I would have hated for something to go bad on whoever bought it.
Edit to add, the 410 block is at standard bore and sonic checked again after cleaning at the machine shop--still good readings. 8)
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Oh nice,I didn't know TRW made a forged piston for 410's sounds like your set.As far as the labor for machining the heads I guess that depends on where your at and the shop you use.The guy I use will usually charge me 300 for guides,3 angle valve job,spring seat cut as necessary,mill and assemble.If I'm going to larger valves then its a little more for larger seats and throat cut.While I'm not doing full race max effort engines, I've yet to be disappointed by his work.I do have to be patient and let him fit my stuff in when he can because he is continually swamped with guys wanting him to do their high boost turbo diesel and turbo ricer import heads ,he shows me some of the torched stuff they bring in because they had their tune wrong,hoping he can save it because they had a ton of money in the porting,its surprising how much of the stuff he can fix.He likes doing my non run of the mill stuff like FE and chevy 348-409 stuff,but mostly its 429-460 heads.