FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: philminotti on December 30, 2020, 03:35:19 PM
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So, santa brought me a bare Shelby FE block from DenBeste. Steel main cap version. It's going to be an FE Power cross ram beast for my Cobra at some point, but I digress.
Obviously, the block will need all the standard machine work, as well as having the cam bearings installed and all the gallery plugs installed. (That's above my pay grade). I live in CT and am considering boxing it up and sending it to our friend in Commerce Township, MI. to give it the TLC it deserves. However, Danbury Competition Engines here in CT has a good FE reputation and I'd like to avoid the thousand dollars in shipping back and forth to Michigan if I can avoid it. My question is this:
Other than the obvious steps of squaring up the decks and doing the finish cylinder honing, what do I want to make my local guy aware of?
Do the mains need to be honed? The sleeves in my Pond block needed to be "set"...do these? Should the cam bearings be pinned, or loctited, or both? What cam bearings do I want? Does the front cam bearing need to be clearanced for the distributor drive like in my Pond block? Should the lifter bores be honed?
Are there any secrets regarding the oil gallery plugs that I should be aware of? Are there plugs that can be inadvertently "overinserted" thus blocking an oil feed? Any other modifications in anticipation of through-pushrod oiling for Jay's heads?
If I don't get a good feeling from this fellow at DCE, Joe Lapine, I may just send my new baby cross country, but maybe that's not necessary.
Phil
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Are you considering running the Edelbrock crossram manifold? I would be relatively sure most will tell you it's a poor choice.
You have two builders that are well know and on this forum on your end of the planet. Barry Robotnic of Survival Motorsports in MI and Brent Lykins in KY.
Trust your instincts on builders. Been there, done that with machine work.
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Are you considering running the Edelbrock crossram manifold? I would be relatively sure most will tell you it's a poor choice.
Keith, Phil mentioned using a FE Power cross ram, and Jay’s new cylinder heads, so I’m guessing it’s this cross ram he’s talking about.
I’m sure Jay will see this post eventually and give you the Shelby block tips you need. And I know in the past Barry R. has commented on the various prep idiosyncrasies all the aftermarket blocks need, maybe he will comment too.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wj1zD3JZ/5-E8790-C1-7-A7-A-4614-8043-57-FA2-E8-DDAAE.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VJP28fKW)
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They need all the work like any other aftermarket block.
On all aluminum blocks we will put them in an oven with torque plates and make sure the sleeves are set.
Cam bearings need green Loctite.
With any FE, if you use a wide front cam bearing, you will need to clearance it. A regular stock style front bearing will usually get you away from it.
Lifter bores will need to be checked and honed to size. Lifters such as Morels are often a hair bigger in diameter.
I’d have whomever works on it hone it with torque plates and the Shelby head studs.
I’d also have them pressure test it first before doing any work and we often seal the insides.
Danbury should be familiar with FEs but you can ship a block anywhere for about $200.
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Are you considering running the Edelbrock crossram manifold? I would be relatively sure most will tell you it's a poor choice.
Keith, Phil mentioned using a FE Power cross ram, and Jay’s new cylinder heads, so I’m guessing it’s this cross ram he’s talking about.
I’m sure Jay will see this post eventually and give you the Shelby block tips you need. And I know in the past Barry R. has commented on the various prep idiosyncrasies all the aftermarket blocks need, maybe he will comment too.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wj1zD3JZ/5-E8790-C1-7-A7-A-4614-8043-57-FA2-E8-DDAAE.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VJP28fKW)
That is a nice looking manifold! I may have missed something previously about equipment choices. I have heard many negatives about the Edelbrock crossram and getting them to run well.
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Thanks for the replies, especially Brent. That's the kind of feedback that makes this forum and it's members so valuable. I think i did pay over $300 for shipping from Cali though. Perhaps I could've done better...
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Phil, for sure a line hone is necessary on the block. The machining operations they use bore three of the main journals from one end of the block, and the other two from the other end, and if there is any misalignment in the fixture or setup you will have a misalignment of a thousandth or two in those bores. I didn't get my first Shelby block line honed, and after running it for a while I took it apart, and was surprised to find three of the mains were down to the copper on the top bearings, and the other two were down to the copper on the bottom bearings. Obviously out of alignment...
I haven't ever decked any of my Shelby blocks (I have four of them), but I do torque the heads in place with a used head gasket and then remove them before any assembly, to make sure that the cylinder liners are pressed all the way down. Usually they are proud of the deck surface by a couple thousandths, which is fine, but I did have one where they went all the way into the block after installing and removing the heads. If they are pushed so far down that they are below the deck surface, then of course you would want to deck the block.
Shelby blocks take regular FE cam bearings, meaning that the cam bearing bores are stepped from front to back. So you shouldn't need to worry about clearancing the front bearing for distributor clearance like you would on a Pond or BBM block, where special cam bearings are required because the IDs of the cam bearing journals are all the same. They also use an excellent priority main oiling system, similar to a small block Ford, so the normal oiling mods you see on other FE blocks are not required. Also all Shelby blocks have oiling to the lifters, so you can use pushrod oiling if desired for the valvetrain.
Hope that helps - Jay
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Phil, for sure a line hone is necessary on the block. The machining operations they use bore three of the main journals from one end of the block, and the other two from the other end, and if there is any misalignment in the fixture or setup you will have a misalignment of a thousandth or two in those bores. I didn't get my first Shelby block line honed, and after running it for a while I took it apart, and was surprised to find three of the mains were down to the copper on the top bearings, and the other two were down to the copper on the bottom bearings. Obviously out of alignment...
I haven't ever decked any of my Shelby blocks (I have four of them), but I do torque the heads in place with a used head gasket and them remove them before any assembly, to make sure that the cylinder liners are pressed all the way down. Usually they are proud of the deck surface by a couple thousandths, which is fine, but I did have one where they went all the way into the block after installing and removing the heads. If they are pushed so far down that they are below the deck surface, then of course you would want to deck the block.
Shelby blocks take regular FE cam bearings, meaning that the cam bearing bores are stepped from front to back. So you shouldn't need to worry about clearancing the front bearing for distributor clearance like you would on a Pond or BBM block, where special cam bearings are required because the IDs of the cam bearing journals are all the same. They also use an excellent priority main oiling system, similar to a small block Ford, so the normal oiling mods you see on other FE blocks are not required. Also all Shelby blocks have oiling to the lifters, so you can use pushrod oiling if desired for the valvetrain.
Hope that helps - Jay
I do like the oiling on that block better than any of the others. The SBF was a step ahead of everyone else in its day and now quite a few of the aftermarket block suppliers offer blocks like that. The higher end Eliminator BBF blocks are set up just like that as well. The aftermarket SBF suppliers still use the factory SBF way of oiling, with just a few changes, so that you can custom tailor which direction the oil comes from and which end of the lifter galleries gets oil first.
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Hi Jay
Would it be reasonable to assume that a clean up align hone on the mains shouldn't change the crank-to-cam centerline enough to require a different chain?
Thanks for the help.
Phil
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That has never been a problem on my blocks Phil, the line hone shouldn't have a significant enough effect to require a different chain.
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My experience with the Shelby blocks, although I feel is an excellent product, the same as it is with other after-market blocks, all critical machined surfaces need to be addressed to some degree.
We will bolt plates to the block decks with rings to apply pressure to the top of the sleeves, heat in the oven for a couple of hours to say 275° - 300°, then I use an air hammer on the deck plates to provide a vibratory effect, in a progressive pattern at the elevated temperature, this will sink the sleeves further, attempting to insure against any further significant sum of sinking in service; when measured before and after, there is always a loss from the original protrusion.
Crankshaft main bores line-honed, if only lightly to establish straightness, check bore for size as at times they may be under sized adequately, and if the bore centers aren't off greatly, just allowing the mandrel to make a couple of passes to clean up insuring alignment , just don't bet on being that lucky. And in a some instances we've incurred another machining operation as we've had a few alloy FE Cross-bolted blocks of different manufactures pass thru exhibiting truly excessive interference/press-fitment between the main cap and block skirts to the point of, if not addressed, feared casting failure due to the excessive deflection imparted as transitioned from the block main saddle bulkheads to the skirt, this requiring some reworking for a more comfortable fitment.
Deck the block with the BHJ Block-True fixture, although generally these blocks have proven to be relatively square in reference, the top of the sleeves seem to wander in parallelism. In proof of this, just make a pass with the mill for decking at a minor shaving value (.0005" =/-) as measured of the mean height of the sleeves and look at the mosaic pattern often resulting.
Obviously, bore (if applicable) and finish hone with torque plates installed, to the desired finish and clearance. And with aluminum vs. iron blocks greater consideration needs to be given to the intended environmental operation as to piston to the resultant bore clearances.
Yes, measure lifter bores for clearance in relation to the intended lifter, and again remember the bore diameters will change with temperature and the aluminum doesn't take to being to tight with the resultant displacement of the oil film!
Check for lower block casting clearancing particularly in instances of a stoker crank.
Inspect and assess the oil delivery and drain-back systems for first, proper execution by the manufacturer, and whether it is suitable for ones' intended purpose; there's always something needing massaging.
And yep, cam bearing installation, and hope that the manufacture did this right enough in both bore diameter and alignment (as rectification is a P.I.T.A., and yes we've had to fix/repair a few others in this area for a number of reasons), that there is adequate interference or press-fitment for bearing retention (again, the aluminum dimension is sensitive to temperature and respective bearing shell retention) and likely are also bored from both ends of the block. Although I agree with the use of a locking compound, I question the real effectiveness as I have witnessed examples were it was not. If one truly is concerned for the possibility of the bearings walking out, then a mechanical retention feature must be added, which I would probably consider particularly for lengthy endurance race applications just as insurance.
And .........ummmm......... :P
But they don't come out of the box ready-to-use, although I have seen a few pressed into service as such, but......... ::)
Scott.