FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: blykins on November 13, 2020, 04:47:24 PM
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Been a long time coming.
The engine has been finished for a few weeks now but had to dodge other builds and scheduling. Beautiful day here today, upper 50's, fall weather, nice and sunny.
I got to the dyno at about 8:45 this morning and it took us about an hour to get it all bolted up and ready to go. We bolted on a Holley 830 to start off with. Engine fired right up, I set the timing to 36°, and we dialed it up to a 2500 rpm break-in rpm and just let it run.
This was a fairly thumpy camshaft, especially for a 352, with about 80 degrees overlap. The 106 LSA doesn't really give a lopey, thumpy idle, but it's more reminiscent of a Cup engine idling. Hard to describe.
After the oil temp and water temp got to where we want, we put a short pull on it to about 5500 rpm. It sounded a little lazy but made 393 hp on the first pull. I went ahead and pulled a spark plug to see where it wanted to be for timing and was shocked to see the porcelain was starting to turn green, which indicates a very hot condition.
Compression ratio came in right at 10.4:1 and I had stuck some Autolite 45's in it. Not a lot of compression and a big fat camshaft, plus we were running some 112 race gas that was still in the fuel cell. The timing mark was almost all the way at the base of the strap, so just to see what would happen (it is a dyno mule after all), I pulled 4 degrees out and we hit it again. Timing mark on the plug moved a hair, but it was still super hot. Dropped 10 hp.
The stupid thing is that I have sets of 124's, AR32's, and AR33's sitting on the shelf, but I didn't bring any of them. So I've got my phone up looking at cross reference charts so I would have some things to ask for when I called the local parts store. The good thing is that the parts store in Buffalo, KY is an old-school store where people actually know stuff. The woman that owns it (yep) answered the phone and I said, "I've got an Autolite 45 plug, do you have a heat index chart for different plugs, because I need something a good bit colder." "She kept me on the line and said, I've got a set of 124's on the shelf." I told her I was on the way.
So $22 later and 3 minutes in plug changes and we fire it back up. I set the timing back to 36° and we put a pull on it. 415 hp. Bingo. Engine still sounded a little lazy but things were looking up. I pulled a plug again, no green porcelain and the timing mark on the strap was on the side it should be on....
We starting making timing changes and it would pick up every time we made a change. The added bonus was that the engine started accelerating a lot better through the pull. No longer sounded lazy. At 42° timing it made 433 hp at 6800 with 405 lb-ft at 4500. At 44° it lost 8 hp, so I put it back to 42.
I had built the 1030 3-barrel carb to take down with me, so we tried that next. Took us several minutes to get it swapped over. We had to change from the 1" Super Sucker to a 1" open spacer due to the rear throttle blade. Got it all bolted up, hit the fuel pump to fill the bowls and gas shot out of the rear vents. I grabbed the nearest hitting stick I could find and pecked the rear bowl in case the float got hung up on the ride down. No cigar. I then lowered the float level to see if it would change anything. No cigar on that one either, so we pulled the rear bowl and found out that the float was mashing up against the metering plate and it wouldn't let it move. I didn't have any floats or parts with me, so that dream quickly faded. I'll try it on the next iteration.
All-in-all, I'm very pleased with this little engine. I know some of you were expecting to see 450-470-500 hp, but to basically have a factory headed 352 with no head work at all aside from a very basic valve job and some small stem valves, making 430-ish hp with just some careful assembly and a big fat cam is pretty cool to me. Remember that this thing is making more than what a 428CJ and a 427MR is rated for. I actually think we would have knocked on 450 hp if we would have let it cool down. The intake manifold was very hot because we were hot lapping the dyno pulls.
I used one of my factory replacement oil pans with oil control baffles, but because of the oil capacity I put an M57B pump in. After the oil and water temps got up to 170-180, it had about 35 lbs of oil pressure at idle and it kept making oil pressure all the way up over 7000 rpm, ending up with about 75 psi at full song. Oil pressure didn't flutter, even with the stand pipes in the lifter valley.
So the thing that was kinda in the back of my mind the entire time was that I was running standard valvetrain hardware on a solid roller with quite a bit of spring pressure. I think I was at somewhere around 670-680 open pressure, with just HD shafts, POP stands/end stands, ARP studs, and my roller tip non-adjustable rockers (more on that in a second). When I was first mocking up the valvetrain with the pushrods, one stand stud wouldn't reach full torque, so when I pulled it back apart I saw that it was starting to pull threads. I went ahead and put a helicoil in that hole on the engine stand, but in the back of my mind, I was wondering if the rest would hold fast, even though they pulled the full 40 lb-ft of torque. I've had rocker studs pull out of aluminum heads on the dyno and it's not fun for anyone involved. Regardless, the valvetrain made it.
Setting up non-adjustable rocker arms with a solid camshaft isn't a walk in the park. It's do-able, but it takes a lot of careful measuring as well as some various length pushrods, some different thickness lash caps, and I even bought some .002" hardened steel shims. At the end of the engine assembly, I had .020"-.021" lash on all 16 valves. I wouldn't recommend this to anyone LOL but I wanted to do it because I wanted to see what my non-adjustable rocker arms would handle and it's a good exercise in engine building measurement techniques to get it all squared away. Props to Smith Brothers pushrods because I told them what I was doing and when I got the pushrods they were all to specified length, +/- about .001". I ended up using 3/8" .145" wall pushrods, 5/16" balls on each end for my rockers, and they were oiling. The oil at the cylinder head feed was completely blocked off and I restricted oil to the each lifter gallery to .125".
In the next few weeks I'll be pulling the intake and heads back off so I can get the heads to Mr. Craine. I'm really curious to see how the pistons fared, as I set the pistons up at .004" out of the hole and used a .041" gasket. The pistons are 1.920" compression height and with .003" piston/wall clearance, there was barely any piston rock at all, so I felt comfortable doing this. I expect to see some clean piston tops and hopefully no witness marks. :)
I didn't flow the heads after the valve job and 5/16" valve installation. It didn't really matter, I was gonna flog it one way or the other. I'll have Joe flow them as-is and then after the work is done. I'd like to see him pick them up 40-50 numbers. We'll see.
Once the heads are back, I'm going to change to the Harland Sharp adjustable rocker arms with cup adjusters. I'm pretty confident I can use the same pushrods I have that way, but since the valves may move up with a different valve job, I don't want to mess with remeasuring and reconfiguring the non-adjustables again. I have a few other things I'd like to try after the head work is done. I have an FE Power timing cover and adjustable cam gear in the engine right now, so I can try some different cam timing settings.
Here's a video of it at full song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyOSLrVkZS4
If anyone thinks they made a close guess in the other thread, I'll be taking a look at that shortly.
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Wow,gotta be happy with that!
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Had to go back and look at my guess but right about what I thought, I had 430hp/415ftlbs
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Looks like chilly won the guess game. I'll give you a yell, Chris.
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Awesome, thanks for the time you take doing theses write ups
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Damn 1 horse away from you Chilly. A day late and a horsepower short the story of my life. Nice job Brent. I agree Brent 433 horse out of a 352, almost stock 427 horsepower. Nice!
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Thanks for sharing Brent!
Any chance you'd be willing to share some of the lower RPM torque numbers? Curious how a relatively small cubic inch engine with mostly stock heads did down low with all that camshaft.
Interested in your opinion on how something like that would be for street manners if it was plugged into a typical street/strip car (stick shift; 3.91 gears, 3600lbs, something like that)?
Thanks again for the great write up and sharing some of your hard-earned knowledge.
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So, what vehicle are you going to put it in?
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Thanks for sharing Brent!
Any chance you'd be willing to share some of the lower RPM torque numbers? Curious how a relatively small cubic inch engine with mostly stock heads did down low with all that camshaft.
Interested in your opinion on how something like that would be for street manners if it was plugged into a typical street/strip car (stick shift; 3.91 gears, 3600lbs, something like that)?
Thanks again for the great write up and sharing some of your hard-earned knowledge.
Peak torque was 405 at 4500, so that's where we started the pulls. I wouldn't expect it to be a barn burner down low.
How would it do in a typical street/strip car? I wouldn't expect it to set any records at 430 hp, but even my 2002 Mustang GT with 260 hp and 335 lb-ft would do alright.
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So, what vehicle are you going to put it in?
Here's the current state of affairs:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50600231353_5c494f4f17_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50600972181_c339366800_z.jpg)
Tore the top end off of it this morning to take a look at some parts and to get the heads stripped down for porting.
I've looked at a few '66-'67 Falcons and I think that's the direction I'm headed when it's through being a dyno mule.
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I think the 66-67 Falcon would be a great choice , likely the lightest Ford that a FE will bolt into using factory mounts , and you could probably buy the worlds nicest 66 or 67 Falcon for 1/4 the cost of the worlds rustiest 67 Mustang!
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I think the 66-67 Falcon would be a great choice , likely the lightest Ford that a FE will bolt into using factory mounts , and you could probably buy the worlds nicest 66 or 67 Falcon for 1/4 the cost of the worlds rustiest 67 Mustang!
Yep, that's a selling factor for me!
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I think the 66-67 Falcon would be a great choice , likely the lightest Ford that a FE will bolt into using factory mounts....
Well, except for a Cobra or GT40, but those make the Mustang a budget choice too ;)
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I think the 66-67 Falcon would be a great choice , likely the lightest Ford that a FE will bolt into using factory mounts....
Well, except for a Cobra or GT40, but those make the Mustang a budget choice too ;)
I vote for a T-Bucket light enougt and no springtowers to interfere ;D
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Be cool to throw one of the new tfs tunnel wedges on it with a pair of carbs....that 352 really honks as is
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Would this fulfill your 66 falcon vision?
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I vote for a T-Bucket light enougt and no springtowers to interfere ;D
That or a Lotus Super 7 replica, get total weight down to 1200lbs with driver and she oughta go OK!
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I vote for a T-Bucket light enougt and no springtowers to interfere ;D
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I had a friend who bought a quality T bucket because he always wanted one. Said it was the most unruly and dangerous car he ever owned. Absolutely hated it. He sold it and built a Chevy powered 502-502 Boss Hoss motorcycle. Said he felt much, much safer on it. :o
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that is interesting .
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I vote for a T-Bucket light enougt and no springtowers to interfere ;D
I had a friend who bought a quality T bucket because he always wanted one. Said it was the most unruly and dangerous car he ever owned. Absolutely hated it. He sold it and built a Chevy powered 502-502 Boss Hoss motorcycle. Said he felt much, much safer on it. :o
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I have a t bucket Only that it have a Chrysler 25 Steel body. Built by myself with suicide front suspension byggysprung fourlink rear. Drives real Nice and straight down the road, and is realy fun on smal winding roads, both gravel and asphalt. Just like a motorcycle but double the fun. Rode in a lot of buckets when i was in USA the last time, from V6 to supercharged bigblocks and non of them felt unsafe in any way. So your friends bucket must have been built wrong in some way
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Depends on how you do the frame and steering on those buckets- wrong is beyond twitchy. A friend bought on that was wrong, had a 340 Mopar in it- on or off the throttle too quick, frame would wind up and it would change lanes in a heartbeat
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I don't know the specifics on the car other than it had 500hp from a bb chevy. This guy was a master fabricator, mechanic but bought the car already built. He changed a lot of stuff, but could never get it to work to his liking.
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You need one of these.
(https://i.imgur.com/uqzwggb.jpg?1)
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You need one of these.
(https://i.imgur.com/uqzwggb.jpg?1)
I'll take an XB if you're shipping them. lol
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On the subject of T-Buckets, I have a friend who had one he put together with a nailhead Buick with six Strombergs. This was in 1964. When he first had it together, he put a padded pushbar on the back so as to not scratch my chrome and I'd act as his push-car with my then-new '64 Custom/427. We did that all through the early part of the season at Milan. I'd give him a push to start and let him go and then I'd run with whoever was next.
The 'talker' in the tower always got a kick out of it and regularly made comments about the 'fastest push-car' at Milan.
George had almighty trouble with the T until he got his front suspension dialed-in. But when it was right he could make nice clean passes.
KS
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Joe should have the heads and valves this week.
Dropped the oil pan to swap it to a deeper sump and checked some bearings while I was in there, then swapped the FE Power timing cover to the factory timing cover and changed all the bolts to AMK pieces.
Should have it right side up on the engine stand again by the end of the week and then wait on Joe to do some carving. (No hurry, Joe.....got plenty of other stuff to do right now.)
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Hope not on hurry, got swamped since I talked with you, so first in, first out unless it is an emergency. Joe-JDC
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I think the 66-67 Falcon would be a great choice , likely the lightest Ford that a FE will bolt into using factory mounts , and you could probably buy the worlds nicest 66 or 67 Falcon for 1/4 the cost of the worlds rustiest 67 Mustang!
NHRA files say the 66-67 Falcon and 67 Mustang CP 289/200 weights are near identical so good sleeper choice.
For about 30 lb more, the 66-67 Falcon 4dr sedan (super sleeper) weighs the same as the 67 Mustang FB.
Then again sometimes those NHRA tables are kinda funky.
For example:
* The 1964 427 Gal got 300 lb fatter compared to the 1963 427 Gal.
* The 1964 390 Gal only gained about 3 lb.
* The 1970 Mustang 428CJ only weighs 13 lb more than the 1970 Mustang 351C
* The 1971 Cobra 429 weighs 250 lb less than the 1970 Cobra 429. Musta been the factory aluminum block & heads LOL.
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The heads and valves made it to Joe's.
I've got a new deep sump pan and pickup on, as well as a factory timing cover and a full AMK bolt set.
I've also got a set of T&D race rockers coming and will convert the heads over when Joe sends them back. I had to helicoil one rocker stand hole on assembly and had resolved myself to putting Timeserts in, but then just figured I'd bite the bullet and not have to worry about it at all. I'd like to try some more aggressive camshafts down the road and didn't want any trouble.
I'm expecting the heads to pick up 30-40 cfm. I think that will put me knocking on the door of 500 hp. To be honest, I think we would have probably cracked on 450 during the dyno session, but the engine has full heat crossovers and we were round robin'ing pulls. The intake was stupid hot.
After the head work dyno session, I'm debating on throwing some compression at it. My gut says I'd pick up another 30-40 hp by bumping the compression up 2 points.
Here's how she sits right now:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50662539472_8d556e4245_z.jpg)
Pistons are sitting at .005-.006" out of the hole. Quench distance was .035-.036". There was no indication that the pistons were touching the heads but I'm not going to press my luck and go tighter. Hardly any rock with a 1.920" compression height piston with .0035" of piston/cylinder clearance, but .035" is gonna be good enough for me on this one.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50662447836_3b1da7794b_z.jpg)
While changing the oil pan, I took a minute to check a few bearings....this is #4 main bearing:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50626151471_145c87ee9a_z.jpg)
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Brent do you have the HP & TQ vs RPM curve for this 433hp run?
Trying to look more at the peak area.
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RPM, TQ, HP
4500, 405, 351
4750, 398, 360
5000, 398, 380
5250, 394, 394
5500, 385, 403
5750, 376, 412
6000, 369, 421
6250, 359, 427
6500, 348, 430
6750, 339, 433
During that pull, oil temp started at 174.6 and ended up at 175.7. Water temp started at 167 and ended up at 171. Oil pressure started at 65 psi and ended up at 73. A/F ratio was 13:1. 42° total timing. 830 Holley.
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Great!
Who was closest?
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I think that’s an old run Bob.
Information for some Werbyizing.
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RPM, TQ, HP
4500, 405, 351
4750, 398, 360
5000, 398, 380
5250, 394, 394
5500, 385, 403
5750, 376, 412
6000, 369, 421
6250, 359, 427
6500, 348, 430
6750, 339, 433
During that pull, oil temp started at 174.6 and ended up at 175.7. Water temp started at 167 and ended up at 171. Oil pressure started at 65 psi and ended up at 73. A/F ratio was 13:1. 42° total timing. 830 Holley.
Thanks.
I've got LSA=106 but I must have missed the ICL?
Also it looks like a pretty quick rev rate from the YouTube, do you know how many RPM/sec it was gaining during the dyno pull?
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105 ICL.
It's a manually controlled Stuska.