FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Non-FE Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Hipopinto on September 23, 2020, 04:29:08 AM
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Hey all
I have a bit of a foolish question but I figure I would ask!
My new pinto engine is an Esslinger 2.3 block With a Volvo head
The head requires oil from and external source as will the turbo
My question is “how” do I make -4 AN oil feed lines for these?
I just built PTFE fuel lines for it but what about oil feed lines?
Is there a pressure and temperature rating?
Im trying to make sure I don’t have a starvation issue or a mechanical failure
I see that some hoses require crimps and such as well
Just looking for Some direction!
The gentlemen I use for tuning is a megasquirt pro and he really made my stock 2.3 turbo engine in my pinto come to life. The game plan is to assemble this engine and put a rough tune on in it on the engine Dyno. Since this is a custom build and I’m making several parts this will be a good way to have 360 degree views of everything god forbid there is a leak on coolant or oil somewhere.
Anyhow just looking for some experience and expertise
Thanks guys
Dave
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Dave, I would just buy some stainless braided line from Russell/Aeroquip/etc., and put some AN hose ends on it from the same company you buy the hose from.
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Brent
Thank you
My thoughts were that exactly
I just wasn’t sure if I was missing anything with the types of lines and any limits there of
I will check and see what summit rates the different types at
Thanks again
Dave
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I would use a non-PTFE lined stainless braided hose and quality fittings. That's what I use for all my dry sump engines. Don't go for any of the "socketless" hose ends or anything special, you just need a regular hose end.
Something like this:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/vpe-21004
Those Vibrant and Fragola fittings work well, as do any of the higher priced fittings from Russell, Aeroquip, or Earls.
If you have an aluminum vise, it will come in handy, as will a set of aluminum wrenches. Wrap the hose in multiple layers of electrical tape, tightly. Use a hack saw or an abrasive chop saw to cut the hose. Apply some assembly lube to the threads, install the ends, then flush the hose with your parts washer.
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-4 teflon lines are commonly available premade in lots of different lengths and straight or angled ends. Those are usually used for brake hoses so certainly capable of oil pressure.
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A Volvo head on a Pinto? never heard of that, what Volvo head?
and what are the benefits? just curious
We used to use the Pinto cambelt on the Volvo B21-23 engines
when we shaved the heads. beacuse it is a little shorter
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I have been using Jegs red/black Max Flow fittings and compatible hose - Pro Hose 350 - for methanol, pressure, oil, etc and haven't had any issues. Easy enough to assemble. Easier by far if you buy a set of AN aluminum jaws for your vice. Braided steel works too, any of the Summit/Jegs/Earl/Russell stuff will work for oil. You'll need more Band-Aids for working with steel braid than for cloth.
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I would use a non-PTFE lined stainless braided hose and quality fittings...
It's extremely rare for me to find anything that Mr. Lykins says that I would disagree on, but this is one place. I am a firm believer in using ALL PTFE-lined hoses for everything. 'Rubber' lined hoses have an expected life of only a couple of years, and a few years ago, I used some of the rubber stuff to feed a set of Weber carbs. Three (I think) years later, I found myself trying to feed the Webers with a mess of 'soaker' hoses. The rubber had hardened and rotted and by the time I realized what was happening, I had a terrible dangerous mess on my hands. Luckily, there was no fire and I simply had the mess to clean up. 'Teflon' simply goes along happily for at least 5 or 6 times as long. Properly ended, brake lines routinely see anywhere from 800 to more than 2000 PSI, so you'll have no pressure problems on any other fluid system in a car.
KS
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If you need a dedicated feed source to the head, I would definitely consider -6AN instead of 4. The problem is always the fittings. They are a bottleneck. The -4 hose may have an ID of 1/4", whereas The fitting may have an ID of 3/16" or less depending on manufacturer. The -4 would certainly have pressure, but lack in volume especially for a critical source as you need here. The turbo should be fine on -4 feed. I always try to use a radiused fitting where room permits. XRP makes some nice fittings and kept flow in mind when making the fittings. I didn't see if the return will need an external line as well, but if it does I would consider at least -8 or -10 and nice radiused fittings for here, to make sure there is no issues trying to return to the pan.
You may already know, but the AN sizing is a simple measure of 1/16's for ID. -4AN is 4/16" or simplified 1/4", -6AN is 6/16" or 3/8" etc...
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A Volvo head on a Pinto? never heard of that, what Volvo head?
and what are the benefits? just curious
We used to use the Pinto cambelt on the Volvo B21-23 engines
when we shaved the heads. beacuse it is a little shorter
I believe he's referring to a Volvo B234 16 valve head. Turbo 2.3 guys have been using them for years. Nearly a bolt on, an oil distribution block has to be welded to the rear of the head and a cam drive can be fabbed from various OEM timing belts and tensioners.
I worked on Volvos for too long.
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I would use a non-PTFE lined stainless braided hose and quality fittings...
It's extremely rare for me to find anything that Mr. Lykins says that I would disagree on, but this is one place. I am a firm believer in using ALL PTFE-lined hoses for everything. 'Rubber' lined hoses have an expected life of only a couple of years, and a few years ago, I used some of the rubber stuff to feed a set of Weber carbs. Three (I think) years later, I found myself trying to feed the Webers with a mess of 'soaker' hoses. The rubber had hardened and rotted and by the time I realized what was happening, I had a terrible dangerous mess on my hands. Luckily, there was no fire and I simply had the mess to clean up. 'Teflon' simply goes along happily for at least 5 or 6 times as long. Properly ended, brake lines routinely see anywhere from 800 to more than 2000 PSI, so you'll have no pressure problems on any other fluid system in a car.
KS
I have seen that PTFE chip and come loose. I'm not worried about the pressure of it at all, but a brake caliper doesn't care if it gets a little chunk of something in it, while an engine would.
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I just finished building a -8AN return style fuel system. Half way thru the project I discovered a handy little tool for assembling AN hoses.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/kts-8
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Yes a VOLVO head on a 2.3 ford style engine
It’s ACTUALLY a cool project but in all honesty not a “cheap” way to make power!!!
So here is the scoop:
In the mid 70s to compete with import cars ford contracted with Porsche to assist in designing a “metric” compact car engine for “their” compact car (the pinto) the result was the Lima engine 2.0 liter.
The “big brother” became the 2.3 Lima or the 2300 pinto engine which is the same base for all the Lima engines up to the turbo coupe and ranger engines even the 2.5 and the multi plug heads. Porsche suggested an aluminum engine but ford said no way, no how, Americans want iron.
Fast forward to the mid 1980s Volvo reaches out to Porsche to assist in designing a family of engines that are OHC and 2.0-2.3 liter displacement. The Germans being who they are used the same firing order, and similar bore spacing from their American project several years before!
So in a round about way the volvo head physically will bolt on the fords head mounting pattern. There are a few MAJOR differences, dowels need recut, the bores or NOT centered on two cylinders (2mm off) and the exhaust manifold and intake manifold must be fabricated.
To make it all “work” you must fab up several parts. I had to build a timing belt tensioner and modify the block. The ford feeds water and oil at the rear of the block to the iron head. The Volvo is aluminum headed so it doesn't need extra water. You can weld a block to the head or plug the deck. I chose plug the deck using “core plugs” I sprayed the deck with dykem layout ink traced a circle template over the abnormal shaped holes and cut perfect circles in the iron, I then drove cup style core plugs in the deck surface to plug the holes. A 1/8 NPT Brass plug Plugs the oil feed. ( this is why I must oil the head externally)
There are MUCH cheaper ways to make the Lima engine a screaming HP machine but this way is VERY unique!
The Volvo head flows great numbers in its stock form. It’s all from memory but I’m thinking with the stock ports at .464 lift it’s about 235-240 cfm intake and 190-200 on the ehhaust. My head has been worked over and it’s flowing 295 on the intake and 240 on the exhaust with .464 lift cams. This has been converted to solid buckets as well. And the Volvo is a true interference engine meaning watch that timing belt!!!
The turbo I’m feeding it with is a BorgWarner EFR-9180 and I have FID2000 injectors. It’s fuel is E-85
The block is an Esslinger mid deck 8.500 aftermarket block, the crank is an Esslinger 3.590” stroke, Dyers 300M too rods 7/16 bolts. CP pistons with Nipon turbo rings and HEAVY pins.
This project has been a labor of love and almost more of an ego thing. My pals on turbo ford think these can make power for sure but many people start these conversions and never finish them. They also are very disappointed in the power they make because the numbers say it should make power but fabrication skills and corner cutting really hinder the output.
Basically this engine is just so I can say “look I did it!” In Europe there are a few making serious power but there are no expenses spared, much like this one check it out
http://tvracing.net/?Kilpurin_tekniikka::Moottori
He has videos on YouTube as well he made 930 hp at the wheels on his Dyno pull it’s unreal!
Also check out Phil Marshal Dyno pull he smokes the wheels at Carlsile on the Dyno with this combo.
I’m hoping I can hit 600-700 at the wheels with my combo. All my parts and numbers say I can. Actually doing it is another story. All I can do is try! Either way 500 at the wheels is An amazing 4 cylinder!
If anyone has questions reach out I love sharing and showing what I’m doing. I also love asking questions as that’s the only way to learn.
Thanks for the replies guys and thanks for listening
Dave
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Very cool.
While I was in fabrication on my mustang I was talking over and fantasizing about using on of these engines turbo’d in a ‘30ish hot rod as the perfect daily driver in LA for a goof ball like me.
Had no idea about the Volvo head though. That’s just cool.
Oh yeah, now I understand your handle.
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Totaly forgott about the Volvo 16V head ::). So its so close to the Ford
I widened The fenders on a Ford Escort but he was going to use the whole
16v Volvo engine in it with Turbo and a Marine crank with more stroke
My oldest son is building a 16V B230 with a Jaguar supercharger for his PV 544
Had a few Ford Taunus with the 1,6-2,0 Pintos wery responsive and highreving
engine for what it was
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Heo
I believe your done engine is the same as my head
The 16 valve should be a B234f head
In marine form it’s AQ171
Honestly a better plan would have been a complete AQ171 engine and building for a turbo street use
Would have been easier but no where near as cool
Dave
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Dave, what part of the world are you in? I've got a turbo Pinto as well.
I'm in SoCal.
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Tommy
I’m in North eastern Ohio
I finally ran my pinto with its current combo (2.3 turbo and nitrous dry shot) basically it’s a stock engine
With no spray it’s 208 at the wheels and 268 with spray
I ran a 14.12 no spray and 11.96 with nitrous
It’s awesome and fun
The FOLVO will be amazing if I can get it all going as planned
Dave