FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Non-FE Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Heo on September 04, 2020, 09:54:31 PM
-
Saw something spectacular a few days ago. I'm putting new facade on one wall of the house
and building new porch and balcony. While i was building i heard the sound of fighter jets
nothing unusual with that,but the sound got higher and higher until it hurts in my ears
So l looked up in the sky and there was two jets right ab ow me involved in a furious dogfight dropping flares
and everything. I have seen them practising dogfight before but not that furious and so low and
and so close to each others and never dropping flares
Two times i thought they was going to collide i watched them for several minutes while they slowly
moved towards east while getting closer and closer to the ground. And i almost sure one was a Russian
SU 27 it was not a Swedish JAS39 for sure. The "SU 27"made a maneuver so it almost fell out of the sky
dived an hightailed eastbound with the 39 on its tail and they where gone 15 minutes later a lone 39
came back from east
-
That must've been a sight to see. I've not seen dogfighting before, but have witnessed F/A18s and F14s launching off carrier USS JFK back in my distant past. Just as youprobably experienced, it is an incredible display of power.
The SU27 and JAS39 are cool aircraft.
-
That must've been a sight to see. I've not seen dogfighting before, but have witnessed F/A18s and F14s launching off carrier USS JFK back in my distant past. Just as youprobably experienced, it is an incredible display of power.
The SU27 and JAS39 are cool aircraft.
Yes i had my private airshow it was amasing just like a WW2 dogfight twisting and turning dumping flares trying to
get the upper hand on each others, sometimes apeared to just hang in the sky before they fell. It realy looked to be
the real deal but no misiles or Acan fire that i saw but they was awfully close to colide a couple of times
So i was prepared to have junk start falling out of the sky :o
And that sound...I worked for the airforce as a mecanic in
the 80s so i was often on side of the runway when a route of two JA37 took of with full afterburner but
they dont sounded as much as those two
The Russians have more and more started to intrude on Swedish airspace lately 20-30 times a year
over the Balic sea but up where i live.....not a good sign...if it was a SU 27. But long bent nose no canard wings
like the 39... so what the hell was it? i guess about 4000 feet height so i saw them good enough to se what it not was
but not good enough to say what it was
Good sign was that the 39 seemed to have the upper hand most of the time. A couple of times the other one got behind him
But he dumped flares and made a Cobra ish manuver stoped almost dead in the air and the other guy flew by and the 39 was on
his tail like a pitbull again
-
Very well could have been an actual dogfight.....I think a lot of things go on in the world that we don't know about.
-
The Russians are playing games up near Alaska also, Buzzing a B52 a few days ago!
-
think a lot of things go on in the world that we don't know about.
Yes many things happen whitout us common people knowing a thing,but those kind hostile manouvers tend to get reported this side of the pond.
-
Could have been training, if you saw a vertical stall, be it Cobra or anything else in a dog fight, that guy would have earned his death in real life
Airspeed is your friend in the air, there is no way anyone with a brain would make it equal zero in a fight.
-
think a lot of things go on in the world that we don't know about.
Yes many things happen whitout us common people knowing a thing,but those kind hostile manouvers tend to get reported this side of the pond.
Mikko what planes do the Finns have today? F18? but i have not heard there was some
joint training with the Finns now. In distans the F18 and SU 27 look a bit like each others
-
Could have been training, if you saw a vertical stall, be it Cobra or anything else in a dog fight, that guy would have earned his death in real live
Airspeed is your friend in the air, there is no way anyone with a brain would make it equal zero in a fight.
I see them training out over the sea now and then and then it is at high speed with safe
distans between the planes. This was a WW2 dogfight with close contact ower my village
maby two hotheads that got carried away
-
think a lot of things go on in the world that we don't know about.
Yes many things happen whitout us common people knowing a thing,but those kind hostile manouvers tend to get reported this side of the pond.
Mikko what planes do the Finns have today? F18? but i have not heard there was some
joint training with the Finns now. In distans the F18 and SU 27 look a bit like each others
Yes F18 currently.There is airbase near by.when i was little kid they used to train mig21? near by my dads childhood home it was cool and very intense looking from ground.
-
Could have been training, if you saw a vertical stall, be it Cobra or anything else in a dog fight, that guy would have earned his death in real live
Airspeed is your friend in the air, there is no way anyone with a brain would make it equal zero in a fight.
I see them training out over the sea now and then and then it is at high speed with safe
distans between the planes. This was a WW2 dogfight with close contact ower my village
maby two hotheads that got carried away
It's not uncommon to do some acrobatics for training, even more common to get in a single-circle or dual-circle fight for training, that is likely what you saw.
It can't be life or death the first time you go to the merge...well I guess it can...once
Of course most everyone fights BVR now anyway with that caliber aircraft, but you still have to be able to. That was learned from Vietnam vs the MiGs that could out turn our aircraft and we lost the skill.
The point is, you don't do acro during a dog fight, you want smash (airspeed) so you can use the air across your wings and turn faster than the guy turning towards you. The old Top Gun...I'll hit my brakes and he will fly by...very big balls...and a movie
-
Well whatever they was doing and where they came from it was really entertaining
Wife asked me what the hell was going on. It ratteled her makeup table, solid wood
from the 1880s :o
-
The Russians are playing games up near Alaska also, Buzzing a B52 a few days ago!
They actually have tailed or flew alongside a B52 several times this year. Getting close enough to see pilots and insignias, which is not something that typically happens. Seems they've been pushing to find where the limits are, or just to show they're not afraid to shake things up a bit. They have done that several times over the years.
Airspeed is typically lost during a dogfight, and depending on the maneuvers, a lot can be lost. Nothing says that they couldn't have been playing the same games with your Air Force pilots. No pilot is going to shoot a missile without a direct order from above, and that's not likely because nobody wants to start an international incident, but that doesn't stop games from being played. I'd find it a bit odd that it was over land, but they have been showing aggression, like you said. So who knows...
-
The Russians are playing games up near Alaska also, Buzzing a B52 a few days ago!
They actually have tailed or flew alongside a B52 several times this year. Getting close enough to see pilots and insignias, which is not something that typically happens. Seems they've been pushing to find where the limits are, or just to show they're not afraid to shake things up a bit. They have done that several times over the years.
Airspeed is typically lost during a dogfight, and depending on the maneuvers, a lot can be lost. Nothing says that they couldn't have been playing the same games with your Air Force pilots. No pilot is going to shoot a missile without a direct order from above, and that's not likely because nobody wants to start an international incident, but that doesn't stop games from being played. I'd find it a bit odd that it was over land, but they have been showing aggression, like you said. So who knows...
Just ended a 25.5 year run, flew reconnaissance for most of it, until I went to strategic stuff in 2014. You are right, the Russian shit is all political, as any military operation is, including war, just a means of politics. BTW it's as much internal nationalism as ity is flexing muscles. I'd call your assessment spot-on for "why" As a mostly-career recon guy, I have been chased by them all LOL
As far as the airspeed, yes of course airspeed is lost, dogfighting is primarily outperforming and out-thinking the adversary (or multiple), one of those variables that applies to both is airspeed management. Dogfighting skills were ID'd as one of the biggest shortfalls after the Vietnam War and the MiGs, which caused the USAF to adapt gunnery and tactics school into the USAF Fighter Weapons School and the Navy to create Top Gun (real name USN Weapons School) I graduated from USAF WS in 2000 and taught there from 2002 - 2005.
I do not see a power stall, vertical stall, or Cobra maneuver being anything other than acro, sure it can be thought of as out-thinking, but in reality, you have no flight controls in a stall, you are counting on some differential engine control and gravity, and finally, remember, you don't go right back to "going fast". You sort of hang like an apple on a string for a while as the other guy is raping around a turn coming back for a fight with a throttle full of hate.
Now, maybe that's not what he saw, hard to see from the ground without binoculars. BTW, interesting history, when the USAF WS started, they would assess the trainees and even assist by sitting on the ridgeline in Nevada and watching the fight by binoculars and talking on radios. US military has come a long way
The fight certainly is 3-dimensional though and the vertical is a great place to live, especially if you have a thrust to weight ratio that you can accelerate, but often it gets confused for a video game. It would be interesting to know what he saw. One of the things to realize though is that it could have easily been blue on blue. A lot of the FSU countries still have Russian equipment. Could have been a absolutely friendly training mission
-
Could have been a absolutely friendly training mission
I can't speak for Sweden, but doing fighter training missions like that over a public area would be a big no-no in the U.S, for lots of reasons. They can and will do low level flying maneuvers over public land (twice, I've had an A10 over my property at under 1000'), but dog fighting is obviously much more dangerous. Plus, military typically does not want people seeing what they do for training. But you are right, it's extremely difficult to track maneuvers from the ground.
Submarines play these games also. There have even been collisions between subs, they got so close. There's a whole lot that goes on that the public will never be aware of.
-
The times have changed in the USA about where military jets can practice their aerial maneuvers, but when I first joined the Air Force back in 1966, after basic and Tech School, I was stationed at Tyndall AFB in Fla, and we had two accidents that took the lives of the pilots. One was flying a F-106 and had his wife visiting at a local beach house, and he buzzed the beach with the F-106, just a few feet off the water and did a circle around to get even lower as he flew over his wife standing on the berm at the seashore. This time around, he was so low the ducting ingested the sea water, and the jet did a nose dive into the water leaving only a few pieces large enough to identify. He was not recovered. Another was a dog fight with F-106s, and coming out of a nose dive upside down a pilot flew into the swamp at supersonic speed and did not have time to eject. The plane went so far down into the swamp, they were never able to recover any part of the jet or the pilot. Those two incidents had a bearing on future dog fights over civilian areas. On brighter note, recently I was travelling up TX 130 toll road at 80 mph, and a huge shadow slowly covered my truck, and very slowly moved to my left like slow motion. I turned to see what was making such a huge shadow, and why it was so slow, only to see Air Force One descending into Austin/Bergstrom airport. AF-1 was on final, and was absolutely beautiful as it slowly settled down, not much faster than my road speed. It was almost surreal, but beautiful. I will never forget that image. Joe-JDC
-
I too had a "huge shadow covering my truck" event years ago, but this was leaving Edwards AFB after a spectacular air show. It was the 50th anniversary of Yeager's supersonic flight. The old general did a Mach 2 pass in an F-15! Another highlight was a Mach 3+ pass from an SR-71. Lots of sonic booms that day :D
The sun was still high, but the road in front of my truck darkened. Suddenly I looked up and there was a B-2 at maybe 300 feet, passing over from behind, then banking sharply and heading off to the south. What a sight! I still get goosebumps thinking about that alien shape silently swooping over me.